Intro. [Recording date: October 27, 2025.]
Russ Roberts: Today is October 27th, 2025, and I’m joined by journalist and author Sam Quinones. He last appeared here in October 2021 to discuss his book The Least of Us. Today, we’re diving into his latest work, The Perfect Tuba: Forging Fulfillment from the Bass Horn, Band, and Hard Work.
Sam, welcome back to EconTalk.
Sam Quinones: It’s wonderful to be back with you, Russ. Thank you for having me; I always enjoy our conversations.
Russ Roberts: This book is quite unconventional, and I found it immensely enjoyable.
Russ Roberts: I must admit, I approached it with a near-total lack of knowledge—let’s say I entered with zero understanding of tubas or bands. But those elements frame your narrative, which explores much more. Could you share what the book is about and what led you to write about tubas and bands?
Sam Quinones: You and I share that sentiment! I’ve never played the tuba nor been in a marching band. My knowledge of the instrument was nonexistent when I began this journey. It all started when I was at the LA Times and reported on a wave of tuba thefts from high schools, particularly in areas with large Mexican populations. I realized the tuba had become a prominent instrument in Mexican LA culture, reflecting the aspirations of immigrants wanting to showcase their success. Back when I was growing up in Southern California, it was all about the guitar—now the tuba reigns supreme.
This rise in tuba popularity led to a surge in thefts, prompting me to write two front-page stories about it. From there, I began interviewing tuba players, intrigued by their passion and dedication. It was fascinating—these musicians weren’t in it for fame or fortune; they played out of pure love for the instrument. I kept interviewing them, even while working on my previous books about the opioid epidemic and Mexican drug trafficking.
After completing those projects, I was eager to shift away from such grim topics. My agent suggested I explore the tuba project I’d mentioned, and that’s how I embarked on this journey—still a novice about the instrument itself.
Russ Roberts: Do you play any musical instruments?
Sam Quinones: I play the guitar. Growing up in 1970s Southern California, it felt like half my friends played guitar. Those days are long gone; we used to have numerous guitar shops nearby. But I love music and have listened to all genres throughout my life. My exploration of the tuba was driven by my desire to find a narrative that moved away from addiction and towards something uplifting. The stories I uncovered were beautifully liberating—the tuba symbolizes that liberation.
Take Bill Bell, for example, a legendary tuba player who recorded the first solo tuba album in 1957. He opened new doors for aspiring tuba players, much like how jazz musicians were inspired by Charlie Parker or rock guitarists by Jimi Hendrix. For many young tuba players, Bill Bell’s music expanded their horizons and helped them see what their instrument could truly achieve.
Russ Roberts: There aren’t many solo tuba albums, are there?
Sam Quinones: At that time, there were none. It’s fascinating to see how the tuba has evolved and now comes in various forms, from concert tubas to sousaphones. Interestingly, the tuba continues to be refined and innovated upon, particularly in light of global competition.
Russ Roberts: I confess, if you had asked me to define a tuba, I would have pointed to a sousaphone—the marching band version that wraps around your shoulder. It’s a prominent image, especially in orchestras, where tubas often go unnoticed at the back. Many people associate the tuba primarily with marching bands, but its role in other musical settings is significant.
Russ Roberts: I want to circle back to your point about how this book serves as a counterbalance to your previous themes, particularly addiction. I’d like to quote you:
I had embarked on all this wanting to write about something very different from the topic that consumed my previous dozen years. By the end, though, I realized the tuba was actually not as far from the issue of drug addiction as I had imagined. Or, better put, the tuba is so far away it’s the mirror opposite of addiction. Drug addiction is an obedience to a substance, forsaking all else in the lonesome pursuit of immediate gratification from something you buy. It is the final expression of our consumer culture’s empty promise: that we can find happiness from a product that is for sale. An opioid overdose shuts down the respiratory system, stifling breath, and life itself.
Russ Roberts: I’d like to challenge that perspective slightly. While your book presents portraits of serious players and high school students, many of them come across as quite—let’s say—quirky. You pose the question of whether their attraction to the tuba stems from their uniqueness or if playing the tuba instills that quality in them. This is an unresolvable dilemma.
However, I argue they also seem a bit obsessive. They are driven—far more than someone like me, who plays guitar for fun. These tuba enthusiasts dedicate extensive time to perfecting a single note, embodying a level of commitment that transcends mere hobbyist enjoyment. Their passion mirrors an obsessive nature, akin to addiction in some respects. Yet, while addiction to opioids can be destructive, this tuba obsession seems to save them. Is that a fair comparison?
Sam Quinones: I see your point. However, there’s a significant difference. People typically join band at a young age, often starting the tuba around 12 or 13 when they have the lung capacity to play. Many of these students initially might not even want to play the tuba—they often end up with it simply because other instruments were taken during band sign-ups. Frequently, these are kids who may feel marginalized socially.
Russ Roberts: Right.
Sam Quinones: Yet, those who persist in playing often discover a sense of self-worth through their music. The tuba shows them their capabilities at a time when societal narratives may suggest otherwise.
Russ Roberts: Absolutely.
Sam Quinones: This newfound self-worth can act as a powerful antidote to the dangers of drugs and addiction. Finding validation in music can provide a crucial alternative to destructive paths. The tuba, in this case, symbolizes liberation and personal growth.
Russ Roberts: And self-respect, which is at the core of your argument.
Russ Roberts: There’s another concept I want to bring in—a term you don’t explicitly mention, but one that resonated with me while reading your book. I found myself exploring YouTube and Spotify for tuba performances, particularly the playful rendition of Flight of the Bumblebee, often played at high speed. While it’s entertaining, I wouldn’t classify it as particularly inspiring.
However, it struck me that tuba players rarely get to take center stage. They typically contribute to an ensemble, enhancing the collective sound rather than being the soloist. Yet, this role is essential. A tuba player can unify the overall performance, much like the bass does in a jazz band. Mastering this instrument, and doing so in a way that supports the ensemble, is a unique and meaningful achievement.
Sam Quinones: I completely agree. This brings me back to my previous works focused on addiction. Drug addiction tends to isolate individuals, while the tuba fosters community. A good tuba player enhances the entire band’s performance. In fact, many tuba players realize they have a leadership role; if they aren’t playing in tune, the whole band suffers.
Russ Roberts: It’s akin to the role of a bass in a jazz ensemble—often unnoticed unless you’re actively listening, yet fundamentally vital to the overall harmony.
Russ Roberts: Let’s discuss small-town bands, a prominent theme in your book. You highlight remarkable stories from Texas towns, with populations around 10,000, competing against larger cities like Dallas and Houston.
Russ Roberts: It’s reminiscent of the narrative in The Music Man, where a so-called savior transforms seemingly untalented individuals into a cohesive band. Can you elaborate on this phenomenon?
Sam Quinones: Absolutely! Initially, I only planned to focus on tuba players. However, I soon realized that band directors mirror tuba players on a larger scale. They dedicate countless hours, motivated by the joy they witness in their students—a joy often rooted in their own formative experiences.
One outstanding example is Al Cortinas, who was himself transformed by music education. As a band director in the Rio Grande Valley, he faced the challenge of engaging students who often lacked access to instruments and lessons. With the drug cartels preying on these kids, he recognized the critical need to elevate his band’s quality to provide a positive alternative.
When he was hired at Roma High School, he convinced the administration to hire ten specialized band directors, each focusing on a specific instrument. This approach ensured continuity, helping students develop their skills over time. As a result, Roma’s band evolved from a casual gathering into a competitive force, ultimately competing against affluent bands from major Texas cities.
Russ Roberts: Competing with students who have access to private lessons and resources—quite an impressive feat.
Sam Quinones: Exactly! They faced off against bands nurtured by symphonies and private instructors. Remarkably, the improved Roma band eventually reached state finals, showcasing the profound impact of effective music education.
Russ Roberts: This is especially impressive considering these students weren’t necessarily the most musically gifted; they simply expressed interest in learning. They didn’t audition based on talent but joined out of curiosity. Is that accurate?
Sam Quinones: Correct. Many students join band because they have limited options, whether due to physical constraints or a lack of interest in other activities. Yet, the transformation is remarkable, as we see bands sprouting up all over the Rio Grande Valley.
Tuba Christmas is an annual event that illustrates this phenomenon. Unlike other areas where older players return to participate, in the Rio Grande Valley, most participants are high school students. In 2023, 350 young tuba players gathered for the celebration, a testament to the community’s commitment to music.
Post-COVID, the event saw participation drop from 650 to 350, but the enthusiasm remains. Parents recognize the importance of keeping their children engaged in band, especially with the threat of drug cartels looming nearby. The dedication of these students and their instructors is palpable, as they work tirelessly to create a nurturing environment.
Russ Roberts: This is a genuinely inspiring American narrative.
Russ Roberts: I want to delve into the issue of average abilities. A noteworthy aspect is that many players and teachers are men—and so are many victims of opioid addiction. A growing discourse suggests that boys and young men in America are facing significant challenges. This isn’t about assigning blame, but it’s striking how for these young men, finding a passion like the tuba can serve as a lifeline.
Sam Quinones: I wholeheartedly agree. Band offers a counter-narrative to the distractions of modern society, including social media and substance abuse. One band director remarked that the solutions to addiction issues lie within the band. This realization shifted my perspective on the book, highlighting the importance of hard work, perseverance, and focus.
Band instills values that nurture well-adjusted individuals, preparing them for successful lives. The lessons learned in band extend beyond music—they promote community, personal development, and resilience against the temptations of modern life.
Russ Roberts: Self-respect is at the core of what you’re discussing.
Russ Roberts: A quote from your book encapsulates the essence of hard work: “There are no secrets. You just work hard.” This resonates deeply, especially considering other activities like sports and even chess, where success often relies on dedication rather than innate talent.
When small high schools achieve remarkable results in competitions, it’s not due to sympathy for their financial constraints; their performances are genuinely commendable. Recently, AI expert Andrej Karpathy emphasized that “agency is more important than intelligence.” He challenges the notion that inherent talent is the primary determinant of success.
Agency, as a personality trait, refers to an individual’s capacity to take initiative, make decisions, and exert control over their actions and environment. It’s about being proactive, rather than reactive—someone with high agency doesn’t just let life happen to them; they shape it. Think of it as a blend of self-efficacy, determination, and a sense of ownership over one’s path.
Russ Roberts: This sentiment mirrors the gift that band directors instill in students: the understanding that hard work and dedication can lead to greatness, even for those without exceptional talent. It’s about fostering agency, a quality that will resonate throughout their lives.
Sam Quinones: Absolutely! Talent is often overrated. While some individuals may possess natural abilities, it’s hard work and persistence that truly matter. We must nurture agency and teach young people the value of effort and dedication.
Russ Roberts: This is an important message, especially in a society that often equates success with innate talent.
Russ Roberts: There’s a saying that captures the essence of the musician’s journey: “A musician is someone who puts a $5000 instrument in a $500 car to get to a $50 gig.” Most musicians are driven not by monetary gain but by their love for music. This passion sustains them, much like the dedication many have for their time spent in band.
Sam Quinones: Indeed, Tuba Christmas exemplifies this passion. Across the country, many people cherish their experiences with the tuba and their memories of band. I dream of quantifying the percentage of Americans who have participated in band at some point—it might be around 20%. This endeavor is a vital part of their lives that often goes unnoticed until you engage them in conversation. You discover many have had meaningful musical experiences that contribute to their happiness and fulfillment.
