Intro. [Recording date: March 19, 2025.]
Russ Roberts: Today is March 19th, 2025, and I’m joined by Ross Douthat, an author and journalist, known for his opinion columns in The New York Times. We’ll delve into his latest book, Believe: Why Everyone Should Be Religious. Welcome to EconTalk, Ross.
Ross Douthat: Thank you for having me. It’s great to be here.
Russ Roberts: Before we dive in, I should note that some themes discussed may not be suitable for young audiences, so parents might want to pre-screen this episode.
Russ Roberts: As regular listeners know, I practice Judaism. When some discover this, their surprise often stems from a perception that belief contradicts intelligence. I like to remind them that many great minds, like Isaac Newton and Maimonides, were believers. Yet, I often hear, ‘That was then; intelligent people today wouldn’t embrace faith.’
Your book seeks to validate belief through a rational lens. For skeptics listening, could you summarize how a rational, educated individual in 2025 might embrace the idea of an invisible deity?
Ross Douthat: The premise of my book is that many reasons people found religion reasonable in the past still hold true today. There’s a prevailing narrative in modern secularism suggesting that faith was justified before key scientific milestones like Copernicus, Galileo, or Darwin. While it’s true that these revolutions challenged specific religious doctrines—especially in a Western context shaped by Christianity—they also left broader questions unanswered.
For instance, the emergence of a universe that appears structured and conducive to life, alongside our consciousness’ ability to comprehend this order, raises profound questions. This enduring human experience of spirituality—from ancient times to now—suggests that belief in higher powers may not merely be a relic of the past but a rational response to the mysteries of existence.
Russ Roberts: You frame this in a probabilistic manner, emphasizing that belief isn’t about absolute certainty—an important nuance in our modern understanding. Is there evidence that might resonate with a rational seeker of faith?
Moreover, I find amusing the narrative that everyone believed in God until Darwin changed everything, as if society was robotic in its faith. Surely, disbelief has existed throughout history, and science has influenced beliefs without erasing them entirely.
Ross Douthat: Absolutely, you only need to look at historical human behavior to see that belief is complex. Even during the peak of formal belief in doctrines like Hell, many lived without the constant fear that critics suggest. People prioritize immediate experiences, regardless of the cultural emphasis on spirituality.
Russ Roberts: Let’s pivot to a topic I find endlessly fascinating—consciousness. Many educated individuals hold the view that consciousness is merely the byproduct of material processes in the brain, negating the existence of a soul. This perspective paints a rather bleak picture of human experience. What role does your understanding of consciousness play in your defense of belief?
Ross Douthat: The crux of the divide between believers and non-believers often hinges on what we consider primary in the universe. We experience both consciousness and the material world, yet the relationship between the two is not straightforward. The religious argument posits that consciousness might be more fundamental than we realize, especially since materialism struggles to explain the emergence of consciousness from mere electrical impulses.
While neuroscience has illuminated parts of this relationship, it hasn’t provided a definitive account of consciousness itself. The challenge remains: how can we reconcile the richness of conscious experience with a strictly material understanding of the cosmos?
Russ Roberts: It’s remarkable how our grasp of the material universe has expanded in recent history, yet our understanding of the brain—our gateway to that universe—remains elusive. Some argue that our emotional experiences are mere bonuses of evolution. You seem to challenge that notion, suggesting it’s an insufficient explanation.
Ross Douthat: Indeed. The question of consciousness—its nature and how it arises—poses significant challenges to materialist perspectives. While some propose that consciousness is an emergent property of brain processes, this doesn’t adequately explain the depth of our subjective experiences. Consciousness is not simply a byproduct; it is a phenomenon that demands further exploration and understanding.
Russ Roberts: As we transition to discussing artificial intelligence, many researchers believe that consciousness could similarly emerge from complex systems like AI. While I’m skeptical, I struggle to articulate why, given my own uncertainty about human consciousness. Could you share your thoughts on this?
Ross Douthat: Skepticism is warranted, especially since we lack a comprehensive materialist explanation for how consciousness arises. If AI were to manifest consciousness, it wouldn’t validate materialism, as the underlying mechanisms would still be unclear. Additionally, there’s a certain mystique to the pursuit of creating conscious machines that echoes ancient myths of creation, reflecting our complex relationship with technology and spirituality.
Russ Roberts: Shifting gears, I find certain arguments for faith unsettling, such as those hinging on coincidences as divine signs. This often reveals a misunderstanding of probability. Another area of contention for me is the concept of near-death experiences. While you see value in these experiences, I find them less compelling. Convince me otherwise.
Ross Douthat: I understand your skepticism. Indeed, some religious experiences can be attributed to psychological factors or coincidence. However, near-death experiences often exhibit consistent patterns across cultures, suggesting something more profound. They frequently lead individuals to transformative realizations about life and morality, marking them as significant events worthy of exploration.
Russ Roberts: The radio story you shared about Michael Shermer illustrates the divide between those who embrace the mystical and those who dismiss it outright. It underscores a fundamental aspect of the human experience: our yearning for meaning in the mysterious. Your reflections on near-death experiences resonate with this idea. Please continue.
Ross Douthat: Exactly. Many people experience phenomena that challenge a strictly materialist worldview. Near-death experiences, while sometimes influenced by cultural expectations, often embody a clarity and intensity that sets them apart from mere hallucinations. They can lead to profound shifts in perspective and values, highlighting the complexity of human experience that science alone cannot fully explain.
