Intro. [Recording date: December 18, 2025.]
Russ Roberts: Today is December 18th, 2025, and before we dive into today’s enlightening conversation, I encourage our listeners to visit econtalk.org to participate in our survey regarding your favorite episodes from 2025. Remember, voting closes this week.
Now, onto our guest. I am thrilled to welcome Daniel Coyle, renowned author and consultant, here to discuss his latest work, Flourish: The Art of Building Meaning, Joy, and Fulfillment. Daniel, it’s a pleasure to have you on EconTalk.
Daniel Coyle: Thanks for having me, Russ. It’s great to be here.
Russ Roberts: You seem to have played it smart by choosing a title that I can’t resist discussing on this podcast. The themes in your book are compelling, and I’m looking forward to exploring them with you. You define flourishing as “the experience of joyful, meaningful growth shared with others.” That’s an interesting take. What led you to frame it this way?
Daniel Coyle: I began by clarifying what flourishing is not. It’s not a machine nor a predictable process that can be fine-tuned for maximum results. Instead, it’s derived from the natural world, which operates more like a living system than a mechanical one. Living systems grow from the inside out, rooting themselves in meaning; they cannot be easily planned or controlled. Joy emerges as a byproduct of this process. When you engage with flourishing individuals, you often encounter elements of surprise and, crucially, a sense of aliveness. This notion of aliveness kept surfacing throughout my research, as people shared their experiences of flourishing, often smiling and recounting stories with common threads. This was the essence of my investigation: to identify the foundational elements of a process that defies precise language, often described in mechanistic terms. Ultimately, flourishing is inherently messy; if everything appears tidy, you might not be truly engaging in the flourishing process.
Russ Roberts: You also touch on the metaphor of red doors, green doors, and yellow doors. Many believe that success lies in saying no to opportunities. While it’s true that too many yeses can lead to missed priorities, it’s the yellow doors—the uncertain, uncomfortable opportunities—that often lead to unexpected joy. I’ve found that embracing these yellow doors has rarely disappointed me. Beyond surprise, you emphasize the importance of shared experiences. Why is that aspect so vital?
Daniel Coyle: Flourishing is fundamentally reciprocal. It’s not about isolated machines working toward individual outcomes; it’s about interconnected growth. Modernity has taught us a skewed lesson, suggesting that progress comes from linear solutions and self-optimization, which often leads to a lonely pursuit of self-improvement. Many people climb mountains of self-enhancement but seem devoid of joy. When you articulate a good life, career, or conversation, they’re rarely linear; they’re typically messy, complex paths. This misunderstanding stems from conflating complicated systems with complex ones. Complicated systems can be replicated consistently, while complex systems—like raising a teenager—are dynamic and evolve based on interactions. The confusion around this yellow door concept reflects our societal training to perceive the world as complicated when, in reality, we navigate a complex landscape filled with opportunities.
Russ Roberts: Exactly. Our aversion to uncertainty is well-documented and likely rooted in evolutionary psychology. Yet, in the modern context, many of us are fortunate enough to face yellow doors without dire consequences. Stepping through them can be enriching, even if it feels unnatural.
Russ Roberts: Your book is structured around two main concepts: Presence and Group Flow. Let’s start with Presence. How do you define it, and why is it significant?
Daniel Coyle: Presence relates to our attention systems. We often think of attention as a singular focus, but we’re experiencing an attentional crisis. What we lack is a clear understanding of what healthy attention looks like. It’s akin to trying to eat well without knowing about proteins or carbohydrates. Attention is not merely about narrow focus; it encompasses two systems. Task attention is narrow and predictive, treating the world as a flat puzzle to manipulate. In contrast, relational attention connects us to the broader world, allowing us to perceive nuances and relationships. Evolutionarily, our ancestors needed to balance these two forms of attention, focusing on immediate needs while remaining aware of their environment.
Modern society tends to privilege task attention, which is why presence becomes crucial. It’s the activation of relational attention that fosters connection and meaning. By stepping back and paying attention to our surroundings, we can unlock the potential to see those yellow doors. The environments I observed, whether in a deli or a school, were designed to cultivate this attentional architecture, nurturing shared moments of presence where meaning is generated. This approach treats meaning as a renewable resource that fuels our efforts.
Russ Roberts: Some listeners might dismiss this as overly sentimental. But having once held similar views, I’ve come to appreciate the importance of this perspective. Your allusion to Iain McGilchrist’s work, The Master and His Emissary, is particularly relevant. You highlight how task attention often overshadows relational attention. For many, conversations can become self-centered, driven by personal interests rather than genuine connection. How can one shift from this instinctive self-focus to a more relational perspective?
Daniel Coyle: That’s a great point. The challenge lies in surrendering control, which feels vulnerable. Understanding what happens in our brains is beneficial. McGilchrist illustrates how our brains have two distinct centers of consciousness. When we surrender, we activate a different, slower, more connective attention. It’s a muscle that becomes easier to exercise over time. The more we practice, the more adept we become at recognizing when we’re overly fixated on control.
Moreover, focus can blind us. Consider the famous experiment where observers counting basketball passes fail to notice a gorilla walking through the scene. When we’re overly certain, it’s a signal that we might be missing crucial details. Cultivating curiosity about our surroundings can help us step back and explore what we might not fully understand. Ultimately, the quality of our lives is intertwined with the quality of our relationships, which reflects our capacity for curiosity and connection.
Russ Roberts: A powerful metaphor for this is riding a bicycle without hands. Initially thrilling, it’s also terrifying because it involves relinquishing control. This notion resonates with many aspects of our lives. Personally, I prefer walking or relying on public transportation, as it offers a semblance of control over my environment. Yet, hiking without GPS or navigational aids feels daunting. Embracing uncertainty can enrich our experiences.
Daniel Coyle: Absolutely. Uncertainty is linked to vitality; the more certainty we cling to, the less vibrant our experiences become. I vividly recall the exhilaration of riding a bike without hands—an experience filled with vitality. Similarly, leaning into the mystery of life can spark profound insights. For instance, consider the Chilean miners who, trapped underground, formed a community not through direct leadership but through shared existential inquiry. They leaned into their circumstances, forging connections that transcended survival. This illustrates how embracing uncertainty can lead to richness in our lives.
Russ Roberts: I often refer to the idea of connecting with something larger than ourselves—be it through relationships, spirituality, or causes. These connections often provide profound meaning. However, I recognize the need to respect introverts who may not always seek social interactions. I’m looking forward to discussing this with Susan Cain regarding her book, Quiet, which explores the value of solitude.
Daniel Coyle: Exactly. In all these scenarios, there are moments when our egos recede, creating a sense of connection that feels remarkable. This experience emphasizes that meaning is not merely information, but an energy that emerges through our interactions. While productivity is valuable, it becomes even more potent when we nest it within relational awareness.
Russ Roberts: Let’s discuss the concept of “awakening cues” from your observations, particularly the time traveler house experiment.
Daniel Coyle: The time traveler house experiment, conducted by Harvard’s Ellen Langer in the 1970s, involved retrofitting an old monastery to resemble 1959. She invited participants in their 70s to live there for a week without any constraints. One group was instructed to pretend they were living in 1959, while the control group had no specific instructions. The results showed that those who embraced the 1959 mindset experienced a remarkable boost in vitality, humor, and connection during their stay.
This illustrates that meaning and connective energy arise not from mere information but from experiences of reception and stillness, activating relational attention. The concept of awakening cues emerged from my visits to various flourishing environments, where individuals could drop their defenses and engage with one another. Much like in the time traveler house, these cues inspire exploration and transformation.
Russ Roberts: While the time traveler story is compelling, I find it intriguing to consider why such an environment triggers vitality. What’s your take on Langer’s theory?
Daniel Coyle: The key lies in breaking away from entrenched habits. By immersing participants in a novel environment, they are prompted to self-organize, igniting a fresh sense of autonomy that generates energy. Additionally, the nostalgic decor resurrects memories that resonate deeply, much like the bike ride memory I shared. Langer’s subsequent research focused on health, revealing how relational attention and meaning are always within reach; they merely require intentionality to awaken.
Russ Roberts: I’m curious how this relates to the concept of Group Flow. How does this idea connect back to the themes you’ve been discussing?
Daniel Coyle: Group Flow is pivotal in unlocking vitality. When individuals come together to navigate challenges, they often find themselves in a state of flow that fosters creativity and connection. This concept resonates with historical experiences of our ancestors, who thrived in small groups facing adversity. Group Flow emphasizes that life and experiences are not mechanical but rather dynamic, akin to rivers that require gradients, banks, and freedom to flow. Organizations that recreate these elements often see enhanced collaboration and vitality.
Russ Roberts: Shifting gears, let’s discuss Julia Cameron’s Morning Pages. What’s the essence of this practice?
Daniel Coyle: Morning Pages is about tapping into relational attention. Julia Cameron, a former journalist, found that by focusing on the quantity of writing rather than quality, she unlocked her creativity. Writing three pages daily, without judgment, liberated her and countless others. The practice emphasizes surrendering control and allowing thoughts to flow freely. While I struggle with this approach at times, its potential for personal transformation is undeniable.
Russ Roberts: Let’s touch on John Gottman and Julie Schwartz’s insights into relationships. What stands out in their approach to fostering healthy connections?
Daniel Coyle: Their groundbreaking work shifted the perspective from viewing relationships as machines requiring repairs to understanding them as living systems that thrive on reciprocal attention. Gottman’s research identified key behaviors—like “turning toward” your partner’s bids for attention—as indicators of relationship health. They advocate for a focus on appreciation rather than criticism, fostering curiosity rather than control. This approach aligns with the relational attention framework, emphasizing the importance of responding and engaging with one another.
