Intro. [Recording date: June 18, 2025.]
Russ Roberts: Today is June 18th, 2025. I am joined by author and photographer Chris Arnade, who shares his insights on his Substack, Chris Arnade Walks the World. Chris last appeared here in July 2019 to discuss his book, Dignity, marking his third visit today.
This time, we’ll delve into the art of walkingâa passion Chris has cultivated extensively. Weâll explore daily life, living standards, and the aesthetic contrasts between Europe and the United States, among other topics that may arise.
As I noted in a recent episode, due to the ongoing conflict in Israel, I’m broadcasting from home, so I apologize for any background noise.
Welcome back to EconTalk, Chris.
Chris Arnade: Thank you for having me.
Russ Roberts: Letâs kick things off with your walking journey. You touched on this during our last conversation when you were working on a photography project. Walking seems to have become an integral part of your day-to-day life. Can you elaborate on that?
Chris Arnade: It’s hard to believe that this has become my day job, but it truly has, and I feel fortunate. I essentially walk everywhere. My Substack is aptly named; it used to be called Walking the World until I faced copyright issues, so now itâs Chris Arnade Walks the World. My method is simple: I arrive in a new cityâsay, Beijingâand after taking a bus from the airport to my hotel, I spend the following day walking across the city, typically covering around 15 miles. The next day, Iâll walk in the opposite direction. Over a week or so, my walks adapt as I discover what piques my interest. Walking allows me to truly absorb a city and understand its culture, which, I believe, is the most authentic way to experience how a city operates.
Russ Roberts: A friend of mine who travels extensively has a rule: upon arriving in a new city, he tackles the most iconic attractions first. This way, if his trip is cut short, he wonât miss out on anything significant. For him, Paris means checking off the Louvre on Day One and visiting the Eiffel Tower and the Arc de Triomphe the next. I suspect you donât share this approach.
While I do have a few sights I wish to see in each city, like you, I relish the experience of walking. However, Iâm curiousâdo you find yourself passing the typical tourist hotspots on your walking journeys, or do you prefer exploring specific neighborhoods? How do you curate what you wish to see?
Chris Arnade: I tend to steer clear of the tourist traps. I often assess a city by its so-called ‘must-see’ locations. From my experiences, these places tend to be overcrowded and lack the distinctiveness they once had. They often embody a global uniformityâthink UNESCO sites that have lost their original charm and mystique due to overexposure and commercialization.
Instead, I seek out the mundane aspects of a city. I believe those unremarkable areas often reveal the true essence of daily life. In tourist-heavy sites, locals often act out roles tailored for visitors, presenting a polished image of their cultureââOh, Iâm Parisian,â or âLook at me, Iâm Vietnamese,â etc. But if you genuinely want to understand how a culture functions, you must witness people in their natural state, unfiltered and unprepared for the camera. Thatâs where the real insights lie.
Take Istanbul, for exampleâone of my favorite cities. Iâve spent considerable time thereâperhaps three months in totalâand visited the Hagia Sophia only once, regrettably. That experience, on a Sunday morning, was the only time I felt like a tourist: bombarded by sales pitches, suffocated by bus fumes, and overwhelmed by the staged atmosphere of it all. Conversely, I often stay in ĂskĂŒdar, a moderately conservative yet vibrant neighborhood. The mosques there, dating back to around 1500 A.D., are beautiful and still serve as community centers. They remain integral to daily life, offering not just a place of worship but also a space for community interaction. My experiences there have offered me deeper insights into the Muslim faith than any visit to a tourist site ever could.
Russ Roberts: You made an intriguing point earlier that underscores the contrast youâre highlighting between must-see attractions and the more authentic experiences. The term ‘must-see’ can almost sound like ‘musty,’ doesnât it? These sites, often steeped in history, can feel stale and overly commercialized.
Many visitors to places like famous mosques or renowned museums aim to check items off their bucket lists. They desire to witness beauty, be it the remarkable Sistine Chapel or the Eiffel Tower. These places epitomize human achievement, and thereâs value in experiencing them firsthand. However, youâve mentioned that these tourist hotspots don’t offer genuine learning experiences. What exactly are you trying to learn, and what insights have you gained from your wanderings? After all, you donât speak multiple languages, do you?
Chris Arnade: Correct, I only speak English. My goal is to understand how people perceive the world and their interactions within it. While I wouldnât discourage anyone from visiting the Louvre to see the Mona Lisa, that simply doesnât intrigue me.
Russ Roberts: I havenât been either.
Chris Arnade: To get a bit philosophical, I often find myself grappling with the Ship of Theseus paradoxâif every plank of a ship is replaced, is it still the same ship? This thought echoes in my mind when I consider many iconic tourist attractions.
Now, Walter Benjamin’s take on replication suggests that, while the essence may remain, the aura of a place can diminish. I see this especially in cathedrals; being physically present in one evokes a profound emotional response that photographs cannot replicate. Yet, I still prefer visiting lesser-known churches, like those in Avignon, which are bustling with life. They resonate with a sense of community, offering a richer experience than what I find at major tourist sites.
Russ Roberts: It sounds like you’re not just on a quest for beauty but also for understanding. You mentioned wanting to grapple with the bigger questions in life. What drives your curiosity? What are you hoping to gain from these encounters?
Chris Arnade: Ultimately, I want to explore how people conceptualize their existence. Many individuals, however, donât engage with these existential questions, which is a realization Iâve come to accept. Itâs important to recognize that not everyone leads an introspective life. I often reflect on what constitutes a good culture. The ancient Greeks never detached the idea of a fulfilling life from one’s community, or polis. Understanding people necessitates understanding the communities they inhabit.
Thus, my primary interest lies in how communities are formed and which types are more successful than others. Unfortunately, thereâs a prevailing hesitancy to interrogate the idea of cultural superiority in academia, which I believe stifles meaningful discourse. However, through my travels, Iâve observed that some cultures seem to foster greater fulfillment and happiness than others.
For instance, while Iâve praised the United States as a great nation, it often falls short in providing genuine fulfillment for many of its citizens. The isolation and dissatisfaction experienced here are strikingly absent in other parts of the world.
Itâs crucial to clarify that Iâm not glamorizing poverty; economic development has its merits. However, it has also ushered in loneliness and disconnection. This theme isn’t novelâthink of Weberâs critiques in the 1930s regarding modernity fostering isolation.
In contrast, my experiences in Istanbul, Vietnam, and similar locales reveal a communal spirit often lacking in the United States. The sense of belonging and community is vital, and I endeavor to emphasize this in my writing. Many Americans, including economists, often overlook this necessity.
Russ Roberts: Can you share a couple of instances from your travels where you encountered communities that deeply moved or impacted you?
Chris Arnade: Istanbul serves as a prime example, but Iâve also observed similar sentiments across Europe and beyond. Countries like Japan and Vietnam showcase remarkable care among individuals thatâs often absent in the U.S. Japan, while known for its loneliness, reflects a social order where people adhere to rules for the greater good. During an early morning walk in Hokkaido, I noticed an elderly woman waiting to cross a street, and despite the absence of traffic, she chose to follow the rules. This cultural adherence contributes to the effectiveness of their public systems.
In Hanoi, I opted for a more local experience, away from the tourist-laden areas. I found myself welcomed into homes, enjoying meals with families, and witnessing the deep respect children have for their parents. This sense of accountability within the community is markedly stronger than what I typically observe in the United States, where individuals often fall through the cracks without support.
Mosques in Amman exemplify this community spirit. They function as community centers, providing shelter and assistance to those in need. This level of informal support and regulation is something thatâs less prevalent in the U.S., where government structures often dominate.
Russ Roberts: Interestingly, the U.S. boasts a vibrant civil society filled with charitable organizations that provide essential support. However, you seem to be highlighting the intimate, one-on-one interactions that many Americans shy away from. In Israel, Iâve discovered that, despite the current governmentâs unpopularity, thereâs a surprising respect for regulations that I hadnât anticipated. In America, many rules are often treated as mere suggestions.
Russ Roberts: Letâs shift gears and discuss logistics. You undertake long walks instead of relying on other modes of transport. What does a lengthy journey look like for you?
Chris Arnade: I typically approach my trips in two ways. One involves settling into a hotel and walking dailyâusually around 10 to 15 miles. The other method requires me to carry gear on my back, changing hotels each day. For instance, I’ve walked the Rhine Valley from Dortmund to Cologne and traversed Japan from Tokyo to Nagata.
Russ Roberts: What kind of distances are we talking about here?
Chris Arnade: Generally, about 200 milesâaveraging 15 miles a day.
Russ Roberts: What do you carry on your back?
Chris Arnade: Iâve upgraded to a more efficient backpack that weighs around 25 pounds.
Russ Roberts: What essentials do you pack?
Chris Arnade: I travel lightâjust the essentials. I have two walking outfits, one nighttime outfit suitable for church, and a couple of other items. I also carry my computer and a physical book, and that’s about it. Iâm meticulous about what I bring, aiming for minimalism.
Russ Roberts: At night, do you wash your underwear in the sink or avoid people?
Chris Arnade: I usually bring about six pairs of lightweight underwear. Sometimes, Iâll toss them and buy new ones, or Iâll use laundromats, which I enjoy visiting to connect with locals. I do my laundry roughly once a week.
Russ Roberts: Historically, youâve used a camera rather than your phone. Why is that?
Chris Arnade: I prefer a good point-and-shoot camera for its quality over an iPhone, which can be annoying in terms of image quality.
Russ Roberts: Itâs intriguing that a light traveler would prioritize that expense, but I commend your choice.
Chris Arnade: My camera is compact, fitting easily in my back pocket, allowing me to snap photos quickly.
Russ Roberts: You recently switched your shoes. What prompted that change?
Chris Arnade: I used to exclusively wear Tevas, but foot issues prompted a shift to boots, specifically KEEN boots. As I age, Iâve learned the importance of consistency in my walking routineâaiming for a ten-mile daily walk. I monitor my mileage carefully to avoid overuse injuries.
Russ Roberts: Do you track your step count?
Chris Arnade: Yes, I do, as thatâs how I keep an eye on my mileage.
Russ Roberts: What constitutes a big day in terms of step count?
Chris Arnade: A big day exceeds 40,000 steps, which translates to over 20 miles. On average, Iâve logged about 11.5 miles daily for the past four years.
Russ Roberts: Impressive!
Russ Roberts: How do you manage to stay dry, or is that not a concern?
Chris Arnade: I accept that I might get wet sometimes. I carry an umbrella and a waterproof jacket, and Iâve wrapped my backpack in plastic bags for rainy days. If I get wet, I simply roll with it.
Russ Roberts: When traversing 200 miles, do you ever sleep outdoors?
Russ Roberts: How do you plan your accommodations?
Chris Arnade: I donât insist on covering every inch of my path. Occasionally, Iâll take a bus if it means reaching a hotel sooner. However, I generally enjoy urban environments and prefer walking through densely populated areas, which are often concentrated along river valleys. This is more common in Europe and Japan than in the expansive U.S.
Russ Roberts: Do you rely on your phone for navigation during these walks?
Chris Arnade: Absolutely. I spend considerable time preparing by creating pin drops on maps, and Iâve recently begun using AI to assist in planning my routes. Itâs proven surprisingly effective for optimizing my pathways, especially over long distances.
Russ Roberts: As a person of considerable statureâ6â2â and 200 poundsâdo you ever feel anxious or fearful wandering through neighborhoods that aren’t frequented by wealthier tourists? You donât carry any weapons, right?
Chris Arnade: No, I donât carry a weapon. I believe that could escalate tensions. My height certainly helps, and interestingly, in less affluent U.S. neighborhoods, Iâve been mistaken for someone in need, as my attire is often casual.
Russ Roberts: That resonates with my experience as well. Whatâs the most memorable experience youâve had while walking?
Chris Arnade: Thatâs a tough question. There have been countless memorable moments, but my experiences in mosques have been particularly profound. Despite being Catholic, my travels have provided me with a deeper understanding of the Muslim faith, especially during festivals in places like Indonesia, where communities gather to distribute food to the needy.
One instance involved being invited to dinner by a family that had welcomed me into their home. These personal connections illustrate the warmth and hospitality that often transcend cultural boundaries.
Russ Roberts: It seems like youâre often invited to mealsâdo you appear particularly hungry?
Chris Arnade: Itâs both heartwarming and sometimes overwhelming to be offered meals so frequently. In Hanoi, I found myself caught in a gift-giving cycle after offering a family American snacks. This generosity creates a sense of obligation, but it also fosters connections that enrich the travel experience.
Russ Roberts: Youâve noted that Europe and America possess fundamentally different perspectives on humanity. Can you elaborate on that?
Chris Arnade: The United States tends to prioritize individuality to an extreme, often bordering on libertarian ideals. This focus can overshadow the non-economic facets of fulfillment. While Europe also emphasizes individualism, it does so to a lesser extent, nurturing a stronger sense of community. I appreciate Americaâs emphasis on self-reinvention, but I often perceive that Europeans experience greater happiness through shared communal values.
In contrast, the American ethos can lead to a relentless pursuit of efficiency, often at the expense of community cohesion. This is particularly evident in workplace expectations. While itâs crucial to acknowledge the benefits of a strong work ethic, a more communal approach may yield healthier societies in our modern era.
Russ Roberts: This resonates with the experience of your Brazilian acquaintance, who chose community over economic advancement. You both recognize that such decisions reflect deeper values.
Russ Roberts: The cultural disparities are evident. As an immigrant, Iâve noticed how deeply ingrained cultural differences shape perspectives, even among those with American roots who have lived in Israel for decades.
Russ Roberts: Youâve been in Israel for four years now. Do you sense a healthier emphasis on public good and communal life here?
Chris Arnade: Absolutely. Dining out here is a stark contrast to America. Initially, I found the service lacking, but soon realized that the Israeli approach fosters a more intimate dining experience, allowing for uninterrupted time with friends. This reflects a broader cultural understanding that values connection over efficiency. In Israel, lingering over meals is the norm, whereas in the U.S., the pressure to turn over tables can disrupt genuine interactions.
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