Intro. [Recording date: July 17, 2025.]
Russ Roberts: Today is July 17th, 2025.
Before I introduce today’s guest, I want to highlight that we will be hosting an EconTalk Book Club in two weeks, focusing on Ernest Hemingway’s novel about the Spanish Civil War, For Whom the Bell Tolls. I encourage everyone to dive into the book. Prior to that episode, I will converse with Hemingway scholar David Wyatt about various themes in the novel, including fascism versus communism, Hemingway’s renowned poise under pressure, and his enduring literary legacy. So, if you’re inclined, please read the book before our discussion, which will air in about two weeks.
Now, let’s move on to today’s guest: author, consultant, and former submarine commander, David Marquet. His latest book, co-authored with Michael Gillespie, is titled Distancing: How Great Leaders Refrain to Make Better Decisions.
David, welcome to EconTalk.
David Marquet: Thanks for having me on the show, Russ.
Russ Roberts: Near the beginning of your book, you share a captivating story that I find both fascinating and instructive. It involves Andy Grove and Gordon Moore during Intel’s formative years. Grove was the first hire, while Moore was the company’s founder. They faced a pivotal decision, and you refer to the concept of “distancing” as a tool that helped them navigate this situation. Can you elaborate on that?
David Marquet: Absolutely. Intel is synonymous with microprocessors today, but their journey began with memory chips. In the 1960s, Grove and Moore were building the company around this product, and their initial success was undeniable. However, by the 1980s, the memory chip market was becoming oversaturated, pressured by Asian manufacturers who excelled in both pricing and quality.
At this juncture, they were also developing a nascent product, the 4004 microprocessor, which was gaining traction but represented a mere fraction of their business. For a year, Grove and Moore debated their next steps, with external observers likely thinking it was evident they should pivot fully to microprocessors. Yet, they found themselves in a stalemate, largely due to their entrenched identity as a memory chip company. Grove himself noted that their identity was intertwined with memory chips; Intel was synonymous with memory chips.
During a meeting, Grove had a moment of reflection, looking out the window and envisioning a distant perspective. He asked Moore, ‘If we were replaced by new leadership, what would they do?’ Moore immediately responded, ‘They would transition to microprocessors.’
The remarkable aspect of this decision was not a lack of market research or data; it stemmed from their mental models and the emotional ties to their past successes. This illustrates a profound challenge in decision-making: often, our perceptions and identities can blind us to necessary changes.
Russ Roberts: This narrative is compelling for two reasons. First, it highlights the struggle of stepping outside oneself, shedding the identity tied to past successes that can act as a mental trap. The second reason is the thought experiment: ‘What would they do?’ It’s an insightful exercise in perspective.
Russ Roberts: ‘Let’s pretend we’re them.’
David Marquet: Exactly, and it’s incredibly liberating.
We often see companies like Kodak and Blockbuster, which became mired in their identities, stifling their evolution despite awareness of market shifts. Their inability to adapt was less about ignorance of market research and more about cognitive biases—our brains can distort reality, leading us to believe we understand the truth when we don’t.
We’re all susceptible to this cognitive distortion, thinking it applies to others but not to ourselves. The trick is to step outside of that immersed state, even if we don’t live our lives in a constant out-of-body experience; there are critical moments where this perspective shift is invaluable.
Russ Roberts: While this is impactful in a corporate context, I believe it’s even more significant on a personal level. Just as Intel’s identity as a memory chip company constrained their choices, we as individuals are often defined by our ideologies, career paths, and labels. Pivoting—an innocent word for a radical shift—demands immense courage.
Your book’s concept likens this to seeking outside counsel: ‘If you were me, what would you do?’ Often, the advice is enlightening. Your approach suggests that we may not need external counsel at all; we can act as our own advisors, adopting the role of an impartial spectator, free from bias and emotional baggage.
David Marquet: Exactly. We possess the ability to visualize ourselves as someone else—this is a unique human capability. We can imagine ourselves in three dimensions: as someone else, somewhere else, or some time else.
For instance, psychologists have studied how individuals recount traumatic experiences by shifting to a third-person perspective, which can aid in processing those events. This technique can also help us focus on our future selves. When I was the captain of a submarine, I would envision my six-months-from-now self and ask, ‘What would I want today’s self to do?’ This reflection proved invaluable.
In the submarine, I would think about the implications of my decisions today on my future self. It’s about investing time now for long-term benefits, even if it requires more effort in the present.
Russ Roberts: The brilliance of this method is that it counters the human tendency to view the future as distant and irrelevant. It brings immediacy to decision-making.
Interestingly, Bezos sought outside advice when contemplating starting Amazon. He asked his boss about his idea of selling books online, and while his boss did not discourage him outright, he advised Bezos to think it over during the weekend. The key moment came when Bezos envisioned himself at 80 years old, reflecting on his life. He considered whether he would regret starting something new and potentially failing or regretting never having tried. This perspective reframed his fears into a desire to avoid future regret.
Russ Roberts: Bezos’ calculations are instructive; they reflect the human tendency toward security and fear of failure. Much of your book revolves around overcoming these fears. Your natural inclination is to stay comfortable, but taking risks can lead to significant rewards.
David Marquet: My co-author, a psychology Ph.D., brought significant insights to our discussions. We found fascinating research on how humans process emotional pain. Evolutionarily, our brains are wired to manage physical pain, which is straightforward. However, as we evolved into social beings, we needed to process social pain—like ostracism and embarrassment—because these experiences profoundly affect our social interactions. Interestingly, social pain can often feel akin to physical pain.
In contemporary society, many risks we face are not life-threatening. We have the freedom to make choices without dire consequences. Yet, our instincts often push us toward safety, keeping us in our metaphorical hammocks, avoiding risks that could lead to growth.
Russ Roberts: I find your story about encountering NFL referees on a plane quite enlightening. These officials were critiquing their own performance immediately after the game, illustrating a commitment to continuous improvement.
David Marquet: Yes, it’s a powerful example. These referees, despite being among the best in their field, actively sought ways to improve. This self-awareness is crucial in any profession. I, too, have experienced the difficulty of accepting feedback as my career progressed. Initially, I welcomed it, but as I gained experience, I became defensive when receiving constructive criticism.
It’s essential to maintain the mindset of a student, always seeking improvement rather than clinging to an identity as an expert.
Russ Roberts: You differentiate between leader-leader and leader-follower organizations, which has profound implications for both business and public policy. In a leader-follower model, authority is centralized, and information flows upward to allow a single leader to make decisions. In contrast, a leader-leader organization empowers individuals at all levels to make decisions based on their insights and expertise.
The principle you describe—pushing authority to those with information rather than information to those with authority—highlights the power of decentralized decision-making. In an ideal scenario, informed individuals close to the operational details should make decisions rather than relying on a single leader’s judgment.
David Marquet: Exactly. During my time as a submarine captain, I realized that compliance was less valuable than critical thinking. I needed my crew to engage their brains rather than follow orders blindly. I stopped giving orders entirely, forcing the team to come to me with suggestions and solutions.
This approach not only increased engagement but also harnessed the collective intelligence of the crew. Effective leadership is about cultivating an environment where everyone feels empowered to contribute.
Russ Roberts: Your narrative about the submarine’s watch system illustrates this beautifully. When you realized that the crew’s watch rotations were unfairly taxing the lower ranks, you implemented a new rule to ensure equitable treatment across all levels.
David Marquet: Yes, that rule fundamentally changed the culture on the submarine. It ensured that senior personnel were held to the same standards as junior crew members, fostering accountability and camaraderie. When leaders prioritize the well-being of their team, the entire organization thrives.
Russ Roberts: To conclude, you discuss the importance of taking a pause in high-pressure situations. This allows individuals to step back from immediate emotional reactions and make more rational decisions.
David Marquet: Absolutely. In moments of stress, we often react impulsively. The key is to recognize when these high-pressure situations arise and consciously take a moment to pause, reflect, and gain perspective. This pause can lead to clearer thinking and better outcomes.
My guest today has been David Marquet. His book is Distancing. Thank you for joining us on EconTalk, David.
David Marquet: Thank you for having me, Russ, and thanks to your listeners.
