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American Focus > Blog > Economy > Primal Intelligence (with Angus Fletcher)
Economy

Primal Intelligence (with Angus Fletcher)

Last updated: November 3, 2025 5:51 am
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Primal Intelligence (with Angus Fletcher)
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0:37

Intro. [Recording date: September 30, 2025.]

Russ Roberts: Today is September 30th, 2025, and I’m joined by Angus Fletcher, a Professor of Story Science at Ohio State University. His latest work, Primal Intelligence: You Are Smarter Than You Know, serves as the focal point of our discussion today. Angus, welcome to EconTalk.

Angus Fletcher: Thrilled to be here! I’m a big fan of the podcast.

0:57

Russ Roberts: Thank you! I really appreciate it. I must say, your book is packed with intriguing concepts and methods, presenting a refreshingly unconventional perspective on life and thought. Let’s dive in with your assertion that we’ve misdefined intelligence. What do you mean by that? What’s behind the term ‘misdefined’ intelligence?

Angus Fletcher: In contemporary society, intelligence is predominantly perceived as a form of logic, defined primarily as data-driven decision-making. The prevailing notion suggests that one can only be deemed intelligent if they possess all the facts, analyze them rationally, and reach an objective conclusion that everyone else would agree upon.

While I have no objections to facts or reason, the issue arises because, more often than not, we lack sufficient information to apply logic effectively. Our brains evolved in environments rife with change, where information was fragile and fluctuating, necessitating a type of intelligence capable of functioning in low-information contexts.

This is the intelligence I explore in my book, stemming from my background in neuroscience and my understanding of how human thought processes distinguish us from computers. This leads us to what I term ‘primal intelligence.’

Russ Roberts: I didn’t delve into your biography earlier—something I tend to avoid—but I introduced you as a professor of story science, which might sound like a contradiction. Yet, as you mentioned, you have roots in neuroscience, and a significant portion of your book draws from your experiences with military personnel in Special Operations. Can you share a bit about your background and how it shaped your work?

Angus Fletcher: Certainly! My journey began with neuroscience, a field encompassing a variety of domains, including psychology. However, I steer clear of psychology, which often analyzes the brain through constructs and tests those constructs using quantitative metrics. My focus is on the physical hardware of the brain—how neurons function and their intricate complexity, which surpasses our current understanding. This complexity enables the brain to achieve feats distinctly different from what computers can manage.

My belief is that human intelligence is characterized by the capacity to formulate plans. If you can devise a plan, especially a novel one, you can navigate new situations. Currently, we’re witnessing a crisis among the youth—an inability to create new plans. When faced with uncertainty, they often seek guidance from others. However, adopting someone else’s plan can be detrimental in unfamiliar environments, particularly since parents may not have the answers for today’s challenges; they succeeded in an entirely different context.

Russ Roberts: Don’t let my children hear that! But please, continue.

Angus Fletcher: Unfortunately, it’s a message I often convey to my children. They frequently ask for advice, and I’m often left at a loss. I believe educators and parents need to be honest, acknowledging that while they may have been clever in the past, today’s landscape is different. They can impart wisdom on how they adapted, but their solutions may not be applicable to today’s complexities.

The ability to devise new plans is a crucial facet of intelligence—one that computers lack and one that schools often neglect to teach. So, what constitutes a plan? It’s essentially a narrative—a series of actions. A new plan, therefore, is a fresh story about the future.

This realization prompted me to delve into how the brain generates new narratives. In a moment of youthful idealism, I pursued a Ph.D. in Shakespeare, believing English departments must harbor expertise in narrative creation. However, I soon discovered that the focus in such departments often lies in philosophical interpretation rather than in inventing new stories.

Despite this, I persevered, eventually earning my Ph.D. at Yale, moving to Stanford, and connecting with industry creatives like Pixar, who are genuinely engaged in story creation. Later, I joined Ohio State, which houses Project Narrative, the premier academic institute for narrative study. My niche lies in the neuroscience of narrative—an area I’ve helped develop, examining how stories function within animal neurons.

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6:21

Russ Roberts: I want to touch on the military aspect, but first, I’d like to highlight a few points about your book to ensure potential readers remain engaged. Although there’s some neuroscience discussed, the book doesn’t cloak itself in academic pretension, which I appreciate. It’s rooted in your diverse experiences and how you’ve applied those insights to real-world scenarios. Now, let’s delve into the military.

Angus Fletcher: Absolutely. I’ve authored numerous academic papers that are largely inaccessible to the general public. But my book is crafted more like a screenplay, filled with anecdotes, plot twists, and characters designed to stimulate imagination and common sense—areas where computers fall short.

Regarding the military, I’m this unconventional academic with a neuroscience background who believes that understanding narratives may unlock the secret to human intelligence. My work had largely gone unnoticed until I received a call from the U.S. Army, specifically from Special Operations. They approached me, acknowledging my unique perspective and interest in planning—an essential aspect of their operations.

Their challenge involves devising strategies for unexpected situations. Once they deploy, their plans often unravel due to unforeseen circumstances, necessitating the development of new strategies on the fly. They expressed interest in my theories about how the human brain formulates new plans and offered funding to test these theories, enabling me to determine their validity.

8:43

Russ Roberts: Much of your book, as you’ve mentioned, is interspersed with narratives about notable figures in history, many of whom are lesser known. A consistent theme is the Special Operations community’s need to adapt strategies and how you’ve learned from them regarding planning. However, I’d like to ensure listeners don’t misconstrue the term ‘planning.’ Personally, I find planning tedious because many assume that rigorously sticking to a plan is essential for success. This notion, I believe, is fundamentally flawed. What are your thoughts on this?

Angus Fletcher: The adage “no plan survives contact with the enemy” underscores the folly of centralized planning. Instead, planning must be decentralized, allowing those on the ground to adapt and evolve with the situation. The real purpose of planning is to enhance the planner’s abilities. This concept harks back to Dwight Eisenhower, who emphasized that before any military operation, one should devise plans for every conceivable scenario. However, once the operation begins, those plans must be discarded in favor of current realities.

So, why engage in planning if it often fails? The answer lies in developing the planner’s skills, not merely the plan itself. Planning enhances one’s capacity to invent new courses of action spontaneously. The training methods employed by Special Operations often involve role-playing under genuine pressure, compelling the mind to devise practical strategies that can shift a situation to one’s advantage.

Conversely, our current education system tends to condition students to seek definitive answers, reinforcing the idea that someone else holds the key to their success. This approach fosters a culture of dependency on established answers rather than cultivating the ability to navigate uncertainty independently, which is crucial for personal growth and innovation.

14:54

Russ Roberts: In many films, there’s a recurring trope where a novice character pairs with an expert, often leading to humorous or enlightening moments. One of my guilty pleasures in this genre is the film Knight and Day, featuring Tom Cruise and Cameron Diaz. In many scenes, the amateur character turns to the expert and asks, ‘What’s the plan?’ Only for the expert to respond with uncertainty, leading to unexpected outcomes. This reflects a truth about life: sometimes, not having a plan is the best approach.

Angus Fletcher: I appreciate that reference to Knight and Day. I had the opportunity to read the script prior to its production and found it endearing. Your point resonates; I discuss the concept of ‘unleash the rookie’ in my book, which stems from my interactions with Special Operations pilots.

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Russ Roberts: I love that idea! Please elaborate.

Angus Fletcher: The notion of ‘unleash the rookie’ emerged from my conversations with elite pilots. I asked them how they continue to improve despite already being the best. They explained that they intentionally hand control over to a rookie, someone who believes they’re more skilled than they are. The rookie inevitably makes mistakes, which pushes the expert out of their comfort zone. In those moments of stress, the expert is forced to innovate and adapt, ultimately enhancing their skills.

This dynamic highlights the importance of embracing uncertainty within training environments. Experts often become complacent, relying on their established knowledge, but by allowing rookies to experiment, they’re compelled to rediscover their adaptability and problem-solving capabilities.

20:54

Russ Roberts: This discussion brings to mind the analogy of an American football quarterback, who must think quickly under immense pressure. They must navigate a highly choreographed playbook while also adapting to the unpredictable nature of the game. Great quarterbacks can slow down the chaotic environment, allowing them to process information effectively. I assume this parallels the experiences of helicopter pilots. Their expertise stems from extensive practice and exposure to various situations.

Angus Fletcher: Indeed, I’ve engaged with NFL quarterbacks during my research, and they serve as a relatable example. Unlike helicopter pilots who combat an impersonal environment, quarterbacks must outsmart their opponents. Success hinges on their ability to surprise the defense, disrupting their plans.

In competitive settings, surprise can turn the tide of a game. If a team becomes predictable, they risk losing momentum. Conversely, a quarterback who can identify weaknesses in the defense and exploit them introduces uncertainty, allowing even poorly executed plays to succeed.

25:04

Russ Roberts: You share an intriguing anecdote about a toddler who becomes distressed when her spoon is replaced. Can you elaborate on this story and its significance?

Angus Fletcher: Certainly! When my daughter was six months old, I took her outside for a picnic, equipped with a jar of carrot puree and several plastic spoons. She dropped her spoon while trying to feed herself, prompting my attempt to replace it with a new one. She burst into tears, refusing the replacement. I realized she wanted her original spoon, not a duplicate.

This moment illustrates a vital aspect of human perception. From birth, our brains are wired to perceive each object as unique. This perspective fosters creativity and the ability to identify new opportunities. As we grow older, this instinct is often suppressed by the desire for efficiency. We begin to categorize things and overlook uniqueness, leading to missed opportunities for discovery.

Russ Roberts: This presents a fascinating tension between generalization and cherishing exceptions. While generalization aids efficiency, it can also hinder our ability to appreciate the uniqueness of individuals or situations. This balance is crucial in personal relationships, management, and decision-making.

Angus Fletcher: Precisely. We often inadvertently categorize people, neglecting their individuality. Spending excessive time deliberating over trivial choices, like which spoon to use at a fast-food restaurant, can drain our time and energy. As we enter an increasingly automated world, our ability to discern uniqueness will become a valuable asset, as machines excel in pattern recognition and efficiency.

However, our challenge lies in toggling between these two perspectives. Children instinctively appreciate uniqueness, while adults often dismiss it in favor of efficiency. Learning to slow down and recognize exceptions can enrich our understanding of others and ourselves.

32:09

Russ Roberts: You have an entertaining experience regarding your interview with Special Operations personnel, where they sought to determine your uniqueness. Can you share that story?

Angus Fletcher: Absolutely! After being contacted by the Army, I was driven to an undisclosed location and informed I would undergo a lie detector test. Naturally, I anticipated being hooked up to a machine. Instead, three individuals in casual attire entered the room, stating, ‘We’re your lie detector test.’ They began asking simple questions, which relaxed me until one of them accused me of having a fake accent. Panic set in as I realized they were correct.

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My explanation—that I had lost my English accent after immigrating—was met with skepticism. They could tell I had intentionally altered my accent. This made me feel as though I was being labeled a spy. Despite my fears, I ultimately passed the interview, and they explained that the truth is often stranger than fiction. Genuine experiences often defy expectations, highlighting the importance of embracing the unexpected.

38:06

Russ Roberts: This highlights a broader truth about personal relationships. We often truncate the narrative of those we know well, treating them as predictable characters rather than dynamic individuals. This tendency can stifle intimacy and lead us to overlook the richness of their narratives.

Angus Fletcher: Absolutely. When we fail to reveal our narratives, we miss opportunities for mutual discovery and intimacy. I once received a call from a Special Operations soldier who expressed concern about the high divorce rates within their community. They sought my help to address the issue.

I suggested a technique I had learned from the operators to surface exceptional information in conversations. By refraining from asking ‘why’ and instead focusing on ‘who, what, when, where, and how,’ individuals can uncover surprising insights about one another. This technique proved effective, leading to meaningful conversations and a deeper understanding of each other.

43:07

Russ Roberts: This underscores the idea that the people in our lives contain surprises that can significantly enhance our relationships. By fostering a childlike sense of wonder, we can cultivate joy and connection.

Angus Fletcher: Exactly. The relationships in our lives can flourish if we approach them with curiosity and openness. When we make judgments too quickly, we miss the opportunity for growth and exploration. I once facilitated a workshop for Special Operations couples facing marital challenges, and the results were heartening. By simply communicating more effectively, many found renewed connection.

It’s essential to recognize that everyone has a unique story. By embracing this notion, we can transform our interactions, leading to deeper relationships and a more profound understanding of ourselves and others.

50:25

Russ Roberts: I want to discuss your thoughts on optimism. You distinguish between wishful thinking and genuine optimism, arguing that the latter is rooted in the belief that ‘this can succeed’ rather than ‘this will succeed.’ Can you elaborate on this distinction?

Angus Fletcher: Certainly! Wishful thinking is the misguided belief that outcomes are guaranteed, which can lead to disillusionment when things don’t go as planned. Genuine optimism, on the other hand, acknowledges uncertainty while remaining open to possibilities. It’s about recognizing that while success isn’t guaranteed, it is achievable.

For example, Special Operations personnel often face daunting challenges, yet they persist because they have a history of overcoming adversity. Their experiences reinforce the belief that persistence can yield success, allowing them to remain optimistic even in dire situations.

1:08:44

Russ Roberts: You also introduce the concept of ‘now plus one’ as a method to manage anxiety. Can you explain this technique and its significance?

Angus Fletcher: Absolutely! ‘Now plus one’ is a practical approach to dealing with anxiety, which is often mischaracterized as purely negative. Anxiety serves an essential function, alerting us to potential threats or uncertainties. Instead of suppressing this feeling, we should learn to engage with it constructively.

The ‘now plus one’ technique encourages individuals to recognize their anxieties and take proactive steps to address them. By focusing on what’s within their control and considering one additional option, individuals can navigate uncertainty more effectively. This method empowers them to confront challenges rather than retreat into avoidance.

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