Intro. [Recording date: October 16, 2025.]
Russ Roberts: Today is October 16th, 2025, and I’m joined by author Will Storr. We’re delving into his latest work, The Status Game. Welcome, Will, to EconTalk.
Will Storr: Thanks for having me, Russ. It’s great to be here.
Russ Roberts: This book has echoes of Adam Smith’s Theory of Moral Sentiments, particularly his quote, “Man naturally desires, not only to be loved, but to be lovely.” Essentially, we all crave respect and admiration, often striving for it honestly. However, we can easily deceive ourselves. You reference a similar notion from Smith, which is delightful to see.
But your book goes beyond this insight. It explores our unending quest to evaluate ourselves and others based on our societal status and how we are perceived. Can you elaborate on this concept of ‘life as a game,’ particularly the status game?
Will Storr: Certainly. The thesis posits that our conscious experience of life is akin to a narrative—it’s how we perceive our existence in every moment. However, our subconscious processes this differently. When I refer to life as a game, I’m highlighting how our brains perceive the environment as a reward space, as noted by neuroscientist Chris Frith. Our subconscious constantly draws us toward what we need and pushes us away from what we do not.
This narrative we tell ourselves helps rationalize our actions. Humans, like all living beings, have fundamental needs: survival and reproduction. Yet, beyond these, we possess two significant urges: the need for connection with others and the need for status. The latter is crucial—we thrive on being valued in our social groups, as we are inherently cooperative creatures. If we feel our status is lacking, it can lead to distress and even mental or physical health issues.
Thus, I argue that status is not merely a desire; it is a vital need, and my book delves into its various implications.
Russ Roberts: Let’s explore judgment a bit. I attended several silent meditation retreats where making eye contact, speaking, or even touching another person is prohibited. Initially, I found this absurd. But after a few minutes, I realized that by not looking at others, they weren’t judging me either. It was liberating to be free from the constant evaluation of my appearance or behavior.
The goal of such retreats is to cultivate awareness of judgment—how frequently we engage in it and its duality as both a useful and burdensome trait. What are your thoughts on judgment in daily life, and has writing this book heightened your sensitivity to the act of judging?
Will Storr: That’s an intriguing experience. The brain possesses what researchers call a status detection system, which perpetually assesses our status relative to others and how they perceive us. For instance, when you enter an elevator, you’re instantly judging the others based on their attire, the floor they’re headed to, and their perceived status. This status game is an unavoidable part of our existence.
We’re not alone in this; many animals assess social hierarchies too, but humans are particularly adept at it. Our cooperative nature means we rely on group dynamics to navigate challenges. Each member of a group understands their role, and status acts as a system of rewards and punishments. Ultimately, we are motivated by our perceived value to others.
In prehistoric times, higher status correlated with greater survival benefits—better resources, mates, and social standing. Thus, pursuing status is not just beneficial; it’s fundamental to our existence.
Russ Roberts: Conversely, the fear of losing status can evoke shame. I recall a party I hosted where a late-arriving fruit delivery man was warmly welcomed by my faculty, who usually adhere to their academic status. They invited him in and treated him with kindness, which I found heartening. This highlights how we often shun those we perceive as lower status, driven by an irrational fear of diminishing our own worth in the eyes of others. Your book sheds light on this subconscious challenge, which I believe is significant.
Will Storr: Absolutely. As I mention in the book, status can leak. We gravitate towards those with higher status, often feeling discomfort around those we perceive as lower status, fearing it might diminish our own value. I’ve noticed this in my CrossFit classes, where I often feel out of my depth among more accomplished athletes.
Russ Roberts: But you’re still doing CrossFit, which is impressive. It’s humbling for me to have you on the show.
Will Storr: Trust me, being at the bottom of the CrossFit ladder is not glamorous. I often find myself alongside older participants, realizing they are my people, reflecting my status in that environment.
Russ Roberts: This reminds me of attending a Jackson Browne concert where the crowd was predominantly older. It struck me how age can shift our perception of status.
Will Storr: Indeed, I had a similar realization when attending a concert of my favorite band, the Afghan Whigs. The audience I once fit into now looked very different—older and heavier. It’s a stark reminder of how time alters our status.
Russ Roberts: You make an excellent point: if you can’t win at one game, find another where you can excel.
Will Storr: Right. The key takeaway is that life isn’t simply a singular status game; it comprises multiple games. I might be low-status at CrossFit, but in other areas—such as experience or expertise—I can excel. As we age, we must adapt our focus to different games that align with our evolving strengths.
Russ Roberts: Precisely.
Will Storr: Embracing this perspective is vital, particularly in a culture that often idolizes youth. I’ve just turned 50, and it’s challenging.
Russ Roberts: For what it’s worth, your hair does look fantastic compared to mine at 71.
Will Storr: You look remarkable for 71!
Russ Roberts: It’s one of my status achievements.
Russ Roberts: Let’s discuss Ben Gunn, an intriguing example from your book that illustrates how status operates.
Will Storr: Ben was the longest-serving prisoner in the UK, sentenced as a teenager for accidentally killing someone. Initially, he attempted to end his life but eventually focused on understanding prison law. His knowledge gained him a reputation among inmates as the go-to person for legal issues, elevating his status within that environment.
However, despite his newfound esteem, when he fell in love with a teacher who visited the prison and was offered a chance at freedom, he chose to stay. He realized that his identity had become intertwined with his status among other prisoners. After his release, he struggled with his identity outside of prison, feeling like “nothing” as an ex-con. This story profoundly highlights our intrinsic need for status, even in dire circumstances.
Russ Roberts: It’s a compelling narrative. It parallels themes in The Shawshank Redemption, where the desire for status intertwines with personal freedom. His tale underscores the complex nature of human identity.
Will Storr: Exactly. Romantic love, while significant, falls under the umbrella of connection, which differs from the societal valuation that status represents.
Russ Roberts: We recently had Toby Stuart on the program discussing his book Anointed, which touches on similar themes but carries a different tone. Your book also implies that while we may rebel against status dynamics, ultimately, they are an inherent part of our existence shaped by our evolutionary history.
Will Storr: Absolutely. The status game is inescapable; it’s embedded in our nature. There are people who believe they’ve exempted themselves from it—like the hikikomori in Japan, who isolate in response to a harsh status environment, only to find themselves engaged in virtual status games online. Their situation highlights the futility of attempting to evade status.
Similarly, Buddhists who aim to transcend status often find their practices filled with status-driven dynamics. Even communism, which aspired to establish a world of pure connection, ended up fostering hierarchies and cults of personality. These examples demonstrate that attempts to avoid status often lead to adverse outcomes.
Russ Roberts: I’m intrigued by your assertion that as we grow older, the relentless pursuit of status can morph into a grievance mentality—feeling entitled to recognition and respect that we perceive others deny us. This sentiment is illustrated in your book through a gripping story of someone demanding recognition. Yet, I wonder if aging brings a sense of peace regarding these grievances.
Will Storr: That’s an insightful observation. I wanted to explore this in my book, but the research was inconsistent. While the concept of retirement was intriguing—removing oneself from societal status games—the effects varied based on whether the individual chose to retire or felt forced into it. I believe your assertion has merit; with age comes a potential for greater acceptance of one’s position, which is a comforting thought.
Moreover, I argue that the feeling of being an underdog—a universal archetype—fuels our desire for higher status. This persistent yearning can lead to a sense of grievance. As we mature, the optimism of youth often dissipates, replaced by a realization that our status may not align with our expectations.
Russ Roberts: You recount a fascinating account regarding Paul McCartney, who later in life sought to change the order of songwriting credits between him and Lennon. It seems petty, but it also reflects the insatiable need for recognition that we’ve been discussing.
Will Storr: Yes, it’s a telling example. Despite being one of the most famous individuals globally, McCartney felt compelled to assert his status through credit arrangements. This speaks to the human condition—our relentless pursuit of validation never truly ceases, regardless of one’s achievements.
Russ Roberts: In academic circles, author order often becomes a contentious issue, with many opting for alphabetical order to avoid disputes over contribution significance, reflecting the absurdity of status competition.
Will Storr: Exactly. The case of the orange juice study illustrates this perfectly—individuals obsessed over minor status discrepancies, emphasizing how integral status is to our social interactions. It is a fundamental aspect of our survival and reproduction.
Russ Roberts: You critique neoliberalism in your book, arguing that its rise has fostered self-centeredness and greed. However, I question whether this intellectual shift truly catalyzed a cultural transformation towards individualism, as communism similarly failed to eliminate inequality.
Will Storr: The human brain constantly seeks to understand its place in society, especially in the context of status. The socio-economic changes initiated by leaders like Thatcher and Reagan certainly shaped cultural narratives, transitioning from collective to individualistic values. The rise of competition in various sectors aligns with this shift.
Russ Roberts: I appreciate your perspective, though I argue that the emphasis on individualism isn’t solely a product of neoliberal policies. The broader cultural shifts that occurred during this period warrant consideration, as they reflect a complex interplay of social dynamics.
Will Storr: Indeed, the cultural narrative transformed significantly during this era. The increasing desire for individual distinction can be traced back to this shift, mirroring the rise of neoliberal values.
Russ Roberts: I believe it’s crucial to distinguish between status and tribalism. While both are deeply rooted in our psychology, they operate on different levels. Your argument suggests an intertwining of these two concepts; I’d like to hear more about that.
Will Storr: We engage in status games both individually and collectively. Our identity is often tied to our group affiliations. Social identity theory underscores how our group memberships shape our status and self-perception. For instance, the fervor displayed at sporting events exemplifies how deeply we care about group status, even if we are not directly involved.
