Between 2012 and 2018, Kerry Washington captivated audiences as Olivia Pope, a fixer in Washington, D.C., alongside Tony Goldwyn’s portrayal of President Fitzgerald Grant in the Shonda Rhimes creation, “Scandal.” The intense chemistry between Olivia and Fitz, dubbed “Olitz” by fans, was undeniable despite Fitz’s marriage and presidential status, which began when Olivia was recruited for his campaign. The show became a must-watch, with Olivia and her “gladiators in suits” employing every method to succeed.
“Scandal” was not only entertaining but also groundbreaking in its casting, featuring Washington, a Black woman, in the lead role, thus transforming television representation. According to Goldwyn, Rhimes often remarked, “I just write the world as I see it, and I think it should be,” with Washington adding, “The world is constantly catching up to her.”
Currently, Washington stars in and executive produces the Apple TV thriller “Imperfect Women.” During a conversation with Goldwyn for their Actors on Actors series, she explained her goal was to create “an environment where people feel safe enough to take big risks and big swings.” In this limited series, based on Araminta Hall’s 2020 novel, Washington plays Eleanor, a CEO whose life is thrown into turmoil following her best friend’s murder.
Meanwhile, Goldwyn takes on two roles this TV season. In “Hacks,” he appears as Bob Lipka, a ruthless media mogul enforcing a strict noncompete on comedian Deborah Vance (Jean Smart) after her departure from his network’s late-night talk show. In “Law & Order,” Goldwyn steps into the shoes of Manhattan district attorney Nicholas Baxter, a role previously held by Sam Waterston for many years. Goldwyn described being offered the part as a “privilege.”
In the final episode of “Scandal,” Olivia exits the White House, with a montage highlighting each character’s journey. Her future remains enigmatic, as a painting of her destined for the National Portrait Gallery is revealed, a distinction typically reserved for presidents. As for “Olitz,” the last scene shows Fitz and Olivia exchanging their signature “Hi,” suggesting a deeper connection. Are they now making jam in Vermont? Read on to discover Washington and Goldwyn’s thoughts.
Kerry Washington: Do people constantly ask you to run for president in real life?
Tony Goldwyn: Yes, generally on a street corner. Don’t you get Olivia Pope’d all the time?
Washington: Yes, constantly. And that I should run for office, or “Olivia Pope, you have to fix this!” So what do you say to people?
Goldwyn: Well, I used to say thank you so much, but that’s a really bad idea.
Washington: I don’t think you would be a terrible president, to be honest. Because you’d assemble a really wonderful Cabinet and team around you. And you care!
Goldwyn: I would. I’d bring you in.
Washington: You would not bring me. I would not be available. You’re such a nice guy, clearly.
Goldwyn: First of all, Kerry is saying something nice to me. Doesn’t happen very often.
Washington: You play such a jerk on “Hacks.”
Goldwyn: I was a massive fan. So when they asked me to do a part, I literally didn’t even read it. I was like, “Please sign me up.” Bob Lipka, who is head of a media company — he’s just one of those guys. I can’t name names, because I’ll get in trouble, but there are several of them who run these big companies.
Washington: He’s so mean. I want to know, is it inspired by somebody?
Goldwyn: So I did say once, and they were like [whispers], “Don’t say that.” I’ve known several of those kinds of guys, and I don’t have a judgment about them. Those jobs are tough. At the end of Season 5, Jean and I have this crazy scene where Bob Lipka steps to new heights — or depths, however you want to look at it — in his efforts to rein in the brilliant Deborah Vance. It was a privilege to be a part of that show.
Now back at you, I am obsessed with “Imperfect Women.” You and Elisabeth Moss and Kate Mara and Corey Stoll and Joel Kinnaman — all my favorite actors are on that show.
Washington: Elisabeth Moss found the book in 2019, and she knew right away that she wanted to play Mary. The part she offered me was Eleanor. One of my favorite things about the book, which we have been able to capture in the show, is this idea that the show shifts perspective. When you’re first reading the book, it feels like it’s going to be an entire novel from Eleanor’s perspective. And then you turn a page and it says “Nancy” and you’re like, “Oh, now I’m going to get this story from the point of view of the dead lady!” And then it shifts again, and it’s Mary. We do that on the show. It meant that rather than having a call sheet that was like one, two, three of who’s the lead actor, we really had a show with three No. 1s. All three of us carry that show together.
Goldwyn: You sure do.
Washington: One of the things that drew me to Eleanor was that all three of us, Kate and Lizzie and myself, we’ve played strong women where the forces that we’re up against are these big, bad forces. Whether it’s Gilead or the White House or journalism — we’re up against these big forces. But on this show, the forces that we’re up against are much more internal. The big bad is our own sense of denial and fear and insecurity. And that kind of inner turmoil was really exciting to play with such a brilliant cast.
Goldwyn: So did you develop the script together?
Washington: Annie Weisman was already on board as our showrunner when I came on board. But Simpson Street and Love & Squalor, Lizzie Moss’ company, along with Annie, we really built out the show. Built the writers’ room, hired the heads of departments, hired the directors, built the cast together.
Goldwyn: And your work is superb.
Washington: Oh, Tony, thank you. As a producer, I love when our costume designers or set designers go home going like, “Wow, I think this might be my best work.” I felt like on this show, I got to do that for myself also. I got to create an environment where I was able to do some of the strongest, most courageous work I’ve ever done before.
Can I ask you a question about “Law & Order”?
Goldwyn: Sure!
Washington: Were you terrified to step into the iconic Sam Waterston role? I mean, those are such big shoes to fill, and he’s so beloved. Was that intimidating? Inspiring?
Goldwyn: It was inspiring. I was excited to do it. Sam was one of my acting heroes. I got to direct him once on “Law & Order,” 20-some years ago. I can’t fill Sam’s shoes; that’s impossible. But the character I play is a totally different guy; he’s just in the same job. And they’ve created a really interesting character, and the reason the show’s good is they still care about the writing so much.
Washington: I’ve done three episodes! Three different characters in the universe.
Goldwyn: We keep trying to get you back.
Washington: How fun would that be?
Goldwyn: They’re like, “Can we get Kerry?” I’m like, “I’m bugging her. I’m always bugging her.”
Should we get into “Scandal”? Fitz and Olivia? We’re still taking pictures together.
Washington: People are so passionate about Olitz, still. Also, have you noticed this thing online where some people are like, “Now that I’m older and I watch the relationship, I’m not sure how healthy it is.” Have you seen any of that?
Goldwyn: They’re just figuring that out? Interesting!
Washington: They weren’t the healthiest couple. That doesn’t mean they weren’t madly in love, but they had some difficulties, which is why people loved it. What did you think about the ending?
Goldwyn: I loved it.
Washington: I did too. The “Hi” in the street. I don’t mean the portrait stuff — I mean our ending, the Olitz ending.
Goldwyn: I felt like it all was part of the same thing. And I have a very strong opinion about what happened.
Washington: People feel very strongly that they’re in Vermont, making jam and all that. Do you feel that way?
Goldwyn: I feel that Fitz and Olivia are together.
Washington: What are they doing?
Goldwyn: I feel that what we had at the root of it was very real, and it’s why we could never get away from it — as opposed to being something that was ultimately dysfunctional. I thought ultimately these two people were their answer to each other.
Washington: Do you feel like maybe they’re in couples therapy now?
Goldwyn: Yes, regularly! Because they know that’s what they have to do to survive. But I think Fitz spent some time in Vermont. He needed to get out of the toxic patterns.
Washington: Did he make jam on his own?
Goldwyn: I think Olivia probably taught him how to make jam, but then when she ate his jam, she’s like, “Your jam sucks!”
Washington: Your jam is terrible.
Goldwyn: But I feel like he was very supportive of her trajectory — whether she became president of the United States or whatever her thing was, I feel like his real jones was to help this woman be, like …
Washington: Her biggest, best self.
Goldwyn: Her best self!
Washington: That’s beautiful, Tony.
Goldwyn: Don’t you look back on times in your life where shit was just going wrong and you were making bad choices — you were doing some things amazingly, but other things were a mess, and you’ve now come through that and you look back and go, “I’m so glad I did that, because that was all part of the process.”
Washington: When I look back at the times in my life that were a mess, I think, “but for the grace of God — thank God that I made it through.” I was talking yesterday with my manager about being so grateful that “Scandal” didn’t happen earlier in my life. Because I would not have been able to handle it. It required so much leadership and responsibility and accountability and communication skills and teamwork. It required such a level up for me as a human being.
Also at that time, I got married, and had my own real family. And if any of that had happened sooner, I would have destroyed it. Destroyed it. So I do think maybe things were harder earlier on because I needed to grow and learn to be able to meet this moment.
Goldwyn: Same with me. The whole thing is a miracle.
Washington: That rocket ship we were all on together.
Prop styling and art direction: Shawn Patrick Anderson/Acme Studios; Assistant prop styling: Joseph Bell
