Intro. [Recording date: May 28, 2026.]
Russ Roberts: Today is May 28th, 2026, and Iâd like to kick off by reminding our listeners that we are hosting an EconTalk Book Club focusing on The Iliad by Homer. Last week, we had a conversation with Ido Hevroni from Shalem College, who provided some valuable context to help you dive into the book. Stay tuned for more episodes in the coming weeks. Weâre using the Fagles translation, but there are plenty of others to explore.
Now, let’s welcome today’s guest: Ronnen Harary, an entrepreneur and television and film producer. He is a co-founder of Spin Master, a Canadian children’s entertainment powerhouse and the co-creator of PAW Patrol, a preschool series that has captivated audiences in 160 countries.
Spin Master reported revenues of $2.3 billion in 2024, establishing itself as the fourth-largest toy company globally, trailing behind Mattel, Hasbro, and Lego. Ronnen is also the author of No Experience Necessary: Why Betting on Yourself in Your Twenties Is the Best Decision You’ll Ever Make, which will be our main focus today. Welcome to EconTalk, Ronnen.
Ronnen Harary: Thanks, Russ. I appreciate the invitation.
Russ Roberts: Your book is both entertaining and thought-provoking. Its core message encourages young people to take chances and start businesses. Beyond that, it offers moral, life, and business lessons.
Letâs begin with the notion of risk. When you urge people to embark on a business venture, the immediate thought is often, âThatâs risky.â You argue that risk is a misunderstood concept. Could you elaborate on how itâs misunderstood and what the correct perspective should be?
Ronnen Harary: Many individuals weigh the pros and cons of starting something, easily envisioning the downsides. However, itâs much more challenging to envision the potential upside because the possibilities are often beyond what we can imagine. If you never start, you miss the chance to write the screenplay of your life. This is part of why I wrote this book: to help people navigate societal and familial pressures that lead them to doubt themselves. Itâs about reframing their thoughts, whether they decide to take a risk in business or the arts, or to choose not to pursue something.
Russ Roberts: You make a compelling point, which resonates with economists. The common focus tends to be on the financial risk of losing money when starting a business. The overwhelming thought is, âWhatever I invest could be gone.â Yet, you point out that the real issue lies in misusing time, which is often more valuable than money. Losing some money can typically be recovered, but wasting your life is a far greater concern.
Ronnen Harary: Absolutely. We often concentrate on financial concerns, neglecting to consider our life aspirations. The concept of equity is worth pondering as well. When you opt not to take risks for yourself, particularly in starting a business, the time you invest in someone else’s venture means that all potential benefits accrue to them, not you. Essentially, youâre renting your time instead of having it work for you. If you assess your earnings over a long stretchâletâs say 20 or 30 yearsâstarting a business might yield a higher annual income in the long run compared to working for someone else.
It’s a challenging perspective to grasp, especially when you’re young and can’t easily visualize the future. Moreover, the role of passion cannot be overstated; it can significantly mitigate risk. If you’re genuinely passionate about an idea, even without prior experience, that passion can drive success. If you only approach a business intellectually, itâs less likely to flourish. Your energy and the support you receive from others when youâre young can be tremendous assets.
Russ Roberts: Letâs discuss your first product, which is quite remarkable. There might be about 10 or 15 pages in the book detailing its conception and success. I must admit, itâs hard to believe such a seemingly unappealing product was a hit. Please tell us what it is.
Ronnen Harary: Sure! We should have included some visuals. The product is essentially a 1990s version of the 1970s Chia Pet. Itâs about the size of a softball, made from nylon, sawdust, and grass seed, with a happy face on it. You soak it in water, and it grows grass for hair.
Russ Roberts: And thatâs it.
Ronnen Harary: Exactly! But it has a certain magic because you wouldnât expect grass to sprout from this softball, yet it does over a weekâitâs like a fun houseplant.
Russ Roberts: You describe the design journey entertainingly; it wasnât a straightforward process, was it?
Ronnen Harary: No, it wasnât. The idea originally came from Turkey, and somehow it made its way to Israel. I learned about it from my mother who read about various manufacturers in an Israeli newspaper, Yedioth Ahronoth. They were boasting about their sales, and I calculated that they had sold around 300,000 pieces in a country of 10 millionâimpressive! It struck me that no one was selling it in North America, and we could tap into that market.
My late grandmother gifted my sisters and me three Earth Buddies, which were called Grassheads in Israel. I proposed the idea of manufacturing and selling them in North America to my business partner, Anton, who initially thought I was nuts.
After two weeks of contemplation, he agreed, and soon we found ourselves at Kmart purchasing pantyhose and sourcing sawdust and grass seed, trying to reverse-engineer the product.
Russ Roberts: You embarked on this venture at the age of 22 or 23, producing 5,000 units and attempting to sell them on street corners, only to sell a few hundred, which seemed disheartening at the time.
Russ Roberts: Then you caught a break with Sam Kotzer, and you explored various sales avenues. However, the heart of your story revolves around Kmart, a name that has seen better days, with reports indicating they have only a handful of stores left. You manage to secure a meeting thereâtell us about that experience.
Ronnen Harary: Just recalling that day fills me with emotion due to its absurdity and excitement. On the morning of the pitch, I woke up at 4:30 AM to drive four and a half hours from Toronto to Kmart’s headquarters in Troy, Michigan, for a 9:00 AM meeting. It didnât occur to me to stay overnight to arrive fresh. We were also trying to save money to reinvest in the business. So, I threw on a white button-down shirt and jeans, loaded a box of 24 Earth Buddies into my mom’s red Toyota Celica, and hit the road.
Interestingly, I did zero preparation for the meeting. There was no PowerPoint, just me and my enthusiasm.
Russ Roberts: You arrive at Kmart with this crucial opportunity, and what unfolds?
Ronnen Harary: I pitched for 30 minutes, and the buyer, a wonderful man, remained silent throughout. After 30 minutes, he told me, âIâm not the buyer for this product.â Confused, I pitched again for another 15 minutes, only to hear the same response. I had to make this work, so I proposed consignment sales, meaning he could take the product with no risk. Still, he reiterated he wasnât the buyer.
Finally, I asked him who the buyer was. He kindly provided me with the name, Adrienne Zacks, on a piece of paper. After thanking him, I rushed around Kmart trying to find her.
Fortunately, I spotted her at her desk and pitched her the product, which led to a meeting scheduled for 3:30 PM. I decided to stay at the office rather than risk missing the opportunity, even skipping lunch with my friends.
Russ Roberts: You stayed in the lobby for five hours, which I find amusing.
Ronnen Harary: Correct. I didnât want to miss my chance.
Russ Roberts: When the meeting finally occurs, what happens?
Ronnen Harary: I walked into her office and noticed she had several Grasshead products on her shelf. I realized I was in the right place. I adjusted my price from $2.60 to $1.65 to remain competitive. After a 15-minute pitch, she handed me a vendor agreement and ordered 48,000 pieces, with the promise of half a million more for Christmas. I was stunned. In disbelief, I even asked for her garden gnome as a memento of the surreal experience.
Russ Roberts: You refer to that moment as an âout-of-body experience,â which is profound. Itâs not just about potential profit; itâs about someone believing in you as much as you believe in yourselfâa truly exhilarating human experience.
Russ Roberts: I want to share another quote from your book:
With hindsight, itâs evident that Adrienne Zacks was predetermined to order the product from someone, and my presence helped affirm that we were the right choice. The price was a significant factor, of course. Looking back, I probably could have sold it at a higher price, but I believe my youth and enthusiasm played a crucial role in her decision. Everyone is rooting for you when you’re young.
Russ Roberts: This insight is profound, highlighting the support young people receive. Adrienneâs quick decision likely stemmed from recognizing your passion and commitment, as well as your willingness to drive four hours with your product. Itâs an inspiring story.
Ronnen Harary: Thank you. She invited me back four years later to speak to underprivileged youth in Detroit, demonstrating her passion for supporting young people. When you’re young, people genuinely want you to succeed.
Moreover, when you engage with older individuals, you give them the opportunity to share their wisdom and feel youthful energy again. Embracing this dynamic is essential, as it fosters meaningful connections.
Russ Roberts: One of the central themes in your book is the undervaluation of business. You not only succeeded financially, but you also opened doors for yourself that could have led you down a different path. Letâs discuss how this little venture turned into a significant success.
Ronnen Harary: The impact extended beyond our success. To meet production demands, we employed 200 individuals in our Toronto factory, including two from a homeless shelter who played crucial roles in production and shipping. The ripple effect of this venture touched many lives.
Russ Roberts: You sold these for $1.60, and they were retailing for $4.99.
Ronnen Harary: Correct; significant margins.
Russ Roberts: Ultimately, they sold 1.5 million Earth Buddies. Looking back, itâs interesting to consider why certain products catch fire and then fade away. What do you think facilitated this surge in popularity, and why do novelty items like this often have a brief lifespan?
Ronnen Harary: Novelty products often have a peak appeal that diminishes over time. Once people experience them, they tend to move on. It was a unique moment; people were captivated by something they had never seen before. The sheer volume of sales allowed many to try it, but once the novelty wore off, interest waned. We were aware of this and actively sought new product ideas to follow up on the success.
Russ Roberts: Your next product was another fad: Devil Sticks. Can you describe what they are?
Ronnen Harary: Devil Sticks consist of a three-piece juggling set. You hold two sticks in each hand, using them to hit a weighted stick adorned with tassels. This spinning motion allows for various tricks.
Russ Roberts: This product also achieved remarkable sales, moving another 1.5 million units. What was the appeal of sticks?
Ronnen Harary: I had played with Devil Sticks in high school, where they were popular among friends. My curiosity was piqued when I saw younger kids engaging with them in parks. This indicated a potential trend, and we decided to capitalize on it with our factory capacity, creating prototypes and entering retail.
Russ Roberts: Do you still sell them?
Ronnen Harary: No, theyâre not in production anymore, but you can still find them available.
Russ Roberts: Similar to Earth Buddies, they had their moment in time. Trends like yo-yos experience similar peaks and declines, where interest surges and then wanes.
Russ Roberts: Your subsequent innovation was Air Hogs, a reusable flying plane. Transitioning from novelty items to complex products must have presented significant design challenges. What were some of the hurdles, and how did you address them?
Ronnen Harary: The initial design faced issues, particularly with the wings breaking upon landing. We swiftly modified the design so the wings would pop off on impact, allowing for easy reattachment. This solution proved effective.
Russ Roberts: Within the first nine months, you sold 35 million units. Following this success, you encountered setbacks, but then hit two remarkable home runs: Bakugan and PAW Patrol. Can you explain Bakugan?
Ronnen Harary: Bakugan is a hybrid of Transformers and Beybladeâa marble that transforms into a character upon rolling onto a card. It features a magnet and spring mechanism that allows it to pop open, creating a captivating surprise. We licensed the concept from a 23-year-old inventor, enhanced it with Japanese innovation, and developed a television show to complement it.
Russ Roberts: Your experience with Beybladeâhaving turned it down years priorâmust have informed your approach with Bakugan. You werenât going to miss out on another opportunity, were you?
Ronnen Harary: Absolutely! After the Beyblade experience, I was determined not to let a promising idea slip by again.
Russ Roberts: Bakugan’s success stemmed from its engaging design and narrative, allowing children to immerse themselves in a captivating storyline. This emotional resonance is essential in driving interest in toys. Your subsequent project, PAW Patrol, also embodies this narrative component. Can you provide an overview of the show?
Ronnen Harary: PAW Patrol follows five dogs, each with unique traits, led by a 12-year-old named Ryder. Whenever Adventure Bay faces a crisis, Ryder selects specific pups to resolve the issue. The series emphasizes teamwork, problem-solving, and positive values, making it appealing to parents and children alike.
Russ Roberts: Thereâs a moral undertone that encourages collaboration and altruism, which likely attracts parents to allow their children to watch it.
Ronnen Harary: Exactly! Itâs fast-paced, engaging, and filled with elements of transformation and resolution.
Russ Roberts: Who were the creative minds behind this show? Was it a collaborative effort?
Ronnen Harary: The original concept was developed by the talented Keith Chapman, known for his work on Bob the Builder. We collaborated with writers and animators, blending our toy design experience with storytelling. This synergy fostered the creation of characters that resonate with children.
Russ Roberts: How have the products associated with PAW Patrol performed, and how has the show evolved over its 13-year run?
Ronnen Harary: We continue to produce new episodes and specials annually, maintaining the original tone while introducing fresh stories. Our goal was initially to reach five years of PAW Patrol, but now we aspire to keep it going indefinitely, adapting to new generations of audiences.
Russ Roberts: Maintaining viewer interest over such a long period presents challenges. How do you keep the content fresh while ensuring it remains true to its core?
Ronnen Harary: Itâs crucial to avoid âjumping the shark.â We adhere to the original essence of the show while allowing for creative exploration within that framework. New writers are encouraged to maintain the established pacing and tone, ensuring continuity while introducing new elements.
Russ Roberts: The characters remain consistent, allowing for new generations of viewers to enjoy the show. Itâs almost like a ritual for children, ensuring that the excitement remains intact.
Ronnen Harary: Precisely! The show has become a cherished experience for many children, allowing them to connect with the characters and stories over time.
Russ Roberts: Human creativity flourishes in response to technological changes, and while some artistic endeavors may seem less lucrative, they often find expression in new mediums. Your work with PAW Patrol has reached an astonishing 250 million children worldwide. What does it mean to have created a world that resonates with so many?
Ronnen Harary: Itâs difficult to grasp the full impact. Meeting families and hearing their stories about PAW Patrol reinforces its global reach. Witnessing children engage with the charactersâwhether through toys or watching the showâbrings the experience full circle. Itâs rewarding to know that our creation has made a difference in their lives.
Russ Roberts: Itâs an incredible legacy. Shifting gears a bit, you mention in your book that you excel at meetingsâa rarity in the business world. What does it mean to you to be effective in meetings?
Ronnen Harary: A productive meeting fosters idea exchange and elevates everyoneâs energy. Itâs like conducting a symphony, where diverse thoughts come together to create something harmonious. My approach has always been to invite contributions from all participants, drawing out insights, particularly from introverted team members who often have valuable perspectives.
Russ Roberts: So, youâre willing to extend meeting times if the conversation is fruitful?
Ronnen Harary: Absolutely. Iâve never canceled a meeting in my career because I believe valuable discussions can emerge even when there seems to be little to address.
Russ Roberts: Thatâs an important reminder about the value of human connection in professional settings.
Russ Roberts: Youâve articulated that business is an art form, which many fail to recognize. Why do you think business carries such negative connotations?
Ronnen Harary: Business often faces criticism due to negative practices and the association with money, leading to distrust. However, at its core, business is about creativity and collaborationâbringing something new into the world. This parallels the artistry of creating music or visual art. The only difference is that business harnesses human cooperation to innovate.
