Intro. [Recording date: December 3, 2025.]
Russ Roberts: Welcome to EconTalk on December 3rd, 2025. Today, I’m speaking with philosopher and author Rebecca Newberger Goldstein about her latest work, The Mattering Instinct: How Our Deepest Longing Drives Us and Divides Us. Rebecca, it’s great to have you here.
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein: Thank you for having me.
Russ Roberts: Let’s dive right in. What exactly is the “mattering instinct”? Can you explain?
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein: Certainly. The mattering instinct refers to our intrinsic desire to feel that we matter. This longing is fundamental to our humanity. Over the years, I’ve explored this concept extensively, and I’ve come to see our species as beings that crave significance. My academic journey began in physics, where I became intrigued by the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which states that systems naturally move towards disorder, or entropy. This principle resonated with me and sparked questions about our existence and the human drive to resist this entropic state. Essentially, we are creatures who resist entropy, and this resistance is rooted in our longing to matter.
Russ Roberts: I haven’t written a book on this, but I share your fascination with this aspect of humanity. Economists often overlook it. For example, if I earn $100,000 through meaningful work versus receiving the same amount from a government program, traditional economic measures might treat both scenarios equally. However, the first scenario enriches my sense of self, while the second diminishes it. Many people find their sense of mattering through their work, which is essential for personal fulfillment. I also think about the societal tragedies we face, like gun violence and mass shootings, which often stem from individuals who feel isolated and unconnected. This lack of connection fuels a deeper crisis of mattering in our society, something we should take seriously.
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein: Absolutely. The importance of mattering cannot be understated. I’ve conversed with diverse individuals, including those who might seem like my polar opposites. One compelling story involves a former neo-Nazi who experienced profound disconnection and found a false sense of mattering through hate. He was led to believe that his worth was tied to his identity as a white male heterosexual. This zero-sum perspective on mattering—where one person’s significance diminishes another’s—highlights the depths of our longing and how it can lead individuals down destructive paths.
Russ Roberts: Let’s explore why this longing can also divide us. Your book outlines various ways people pursue their desire to matter. Could you elaborate on that?
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein: Sure. In my book, I outline a “Mattering Map” that categorizes how people seek to fulfill this instinct. The four main strategies include transcendent mattering, social mattering, competitive mattering, and heroic striving. Transcendent mattering involves a belief in a cosmic purpose, often found in religious or spiritual contexts. Social mattering pertains to relationships and the need to be valued by others. Competitive mattering is the desire to outshine others and be the most significant person in the room. Finally, heroic striving focuses on personal excellence and achieving high standards in various domains.
Russ Roberts: I appreciate your insights. It’s often said we are self-interested rather than selfish, which resonates with Adam Smith’s notion that we not only desire love but also the admiration of others. This speaks to our fundamental longing to matter. But you take this idea further, suggesting that our quest for validation stems from a deeper discomfort with our self-awareness. Can you unpack this idea?
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein: Absolutely. Our capacity for self-reflection prompts us to seek justification for our existence. We naturally pay attention to ourselves, leading to an inherent tension: the more we focus on our own significance, the more we question whether we truly matter. This unease often manifests in individuals suffering from depression, who may feel they do not deserve the attention they crave. Such feelings highlight the complex interplay between our need for affirmation and our self-perception.
Russ Roberts: Let’s discuss your “Mattering Map” in more detail. How do different individuals find a sense of mattering, and what categories did you identify?
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein: The Mattering Map includes four strategies: transcendent, social, competitive, and heroic striving. Transcendent matterers seek significance from a higher power, believing they have a unique purpose. Socializers derive their mattering from relationships and social interactions, which can be both positive and negative. Competitive matterers view significance in zero-sum terms, striving to be more important than others. Lastly, heroic strivers pursue personal excellence, often independent of societal validation. Each category reflects different motivations and can lead to both constructive and destructive outcomes.
Russ Roberts: The competitive matterers you describe remind me of Gore Vidal’s infamous quote, “Every time a friend succeeds, I die a little.” Your call to practice “kvelling,” or taking pride in others’ achievements, offers a refreshing alternative. Can you elaborate on this idea?
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein: Yes! Kvelling reflects a generous spirit, allowing us to celebrate others’ successes rather than viewing them through the lens of competition. This capacity for appreciation enriches our collective experience and fosters a sense of community. Recognizing the achievements of others can counteract the toxic jealousy that often accompanies competitive mattering, promoting a more inclusive atmosphere where everyone feels valued.
Russ Roberts: As we approach the end, I’d like to touch on the societal implications of our desire to matter. You mention that despite material wealth, many individuals experience a crisis of mattering. How can we reconcile this disconnect in modern society?
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein: This crisis of mattering is profound. Despite unprecedented material comfort, many people still feel unfulfilled and disconnected. Our longing to matter is central to our identities, and when it goes unmet, it can lead to feelings of worthlessness and resentment. The challenge lies in fostering environments—whether in families, workplaces, or communities—that affirm each individual’s significance. It’s crucial to cultivate connections and recognize that, ultimately, our need to matter transcends material wealth.
Russ Roberts: Thank you, Rebecca. Your insights into the human experience and the mattering instinct are invaluable. I hope our listeners will reflect on their own mattering projects and the ways they connect with others to create a more meaningful existence.
Rebecca Newberger Goldstein: Thank you, Russ. It’s been a pleasure discussing these important topics with you.
