Intro. [Recording date: February 26, 2026.]
Russ Roberts: It’s February 26, 2026, and I have the privilege of speaking with Stewart Brand today. Stewart is well-known as the co-founder and editor of the Whole Earth Catalog, and the founder of several notable organizations, including the WELL, the Global Business Network, and the Long Now Foundation. His latest literary endeavor, which we will delve into today, is titled Maintenance: Of Everything, Part One. Welcome to EconTalk, Stewart.
Stewart Brand: Thank you! It’s great to be here.
Russ Roberts: I must admit, I thoroughly enjoyed your book. It’s impressively expansive and endlessly intriguing. Each page unveils something captivating. Yet, I have to confess that the theme of maintenance is rather foreign to me. Living in Jerusalem, I don’t own a car—something that was once a staple of my maintenance routine back in America. My daily maintenance routine is limited to brushing my teeth and hitting the gym three times a week. Beyond my toothbrush and computer, I have no tools, and I suspect your life revolves around quite a different maintenance routine. What tools do you regularly utilize in your daily maintenance?
Stewart Brand: Reaching the age of 87, I can tell you that the primary maintenance concern becomes health.
Russ Roberts: Absolutely.
Stewart Brand: In my younger days as a hippie, we were all about living in the moment. It took us some time to realize that maintenance tasks, like changing oil, were essential—even when we didn’t feel like doing them. Thus, there’s a certain discipline that comes with maintenance, which some people manage to turn into a delightful ritual.
Russ Roberts: Is that ritual enjoyable for you? Excluding healthcare, which is often a different matter, do you find joy in maintaining tools, machinery, or your home?
Stewart Brand: I’ve had my share of boats—sailboats and motorboats alike. There’s a certain joy in working on boats; it’s often said that messing about with them is a pleasure unto itself. People who own guns find satisfaction in cleaning and oiling them. A friend of mine would completely disassemble his Harley Davidson every Christmas, right down to the last washer and bolt, just to put it back together again—it was akin to him reassembling his life.
Russ Roberts: That sounds enjoyable. Throughout your life, have there been particular maintenance activities that held significance for you or that provided a Zen-like satisfaction in caring for well-made things? For instance, while my computer is well-crafted, my maintenance extends only to an occasional screen cleaning. Historically, people had to maintain their tools to accomplish work, and I’m curious if that has been an important aspect of your life.
Stewart Brand: Frankly, I’m not a great maintainer. My maintenance skills are lacking, and I suspect it stems from an optimistic worldview. I have this almost Platonic view of existence—where, in Plato’s realm, things exist perfectly and don’t require maintenance. In contrast, good maintainers are often realists. They look at their motorcycles, spotting oil leaks, and assessing what adjustments might be necessary. But, let’s be clear: older combustion engine motorcycles require much more attention than modern electric models, which have minimal moving parts and very little maintenance needs.
Russ Roberts: I recall running a marathon in my early 20s where I had to be acutely aware of my body for four hours and 20 minutes—I was monitoring every little thing because I was concerned about breaking down. This realism was stark and required vigilance. Like you, I tend to be an optimist, but an event such as a timing belt snapping in my Honda Accord—and subsequently halting the car—was a wake-up call. After consulting the manual, I learned my lesson about preventive maintenance. It often takes an event or injury to encourage vigilance in maintenance, at least in my case. Yet, I believe there are many who are more diligent in caring for their tools than I am.
Stewart Brand: You likely perform some degree of computer hygiene, keeping it updated and clearing out clutter. As we increasingly embrace a digital lifestyle, we’re discovering new forms of maintenance. In tech circles, software developers refer to mundane maintenance tasks as “toil.” They strive to automate processes to predict failures and implement fixes proactively. I believe AI will significantly aid in this regard, but we may find ourselves in a peculiar situation where we spend more time negotiating with robots. Their automated responses are based on assumptions about user behavior, which may not align with human intuition.
Russ Roberts: When I was running, my focus was on being vigilant, a word I find fits better than merely ‘paying attention.’
Stewart Brand: Excellent choice of words.
Russ Roberts: When faced with danger, we naturally become vigilant, driven by the instinct to survive. This makes me ponder AI’s role: as we delegate more responsibilities to non-human agents, like self-repairing software programs—which constantly update themselves, like a Tesla—it raises concerns about the erosion of our habitual vigilance. How will we cope?
Stewart Brand: Our relationship with automated systems isn’t new. Thermostats and governors on steam engines serve to maintain proper operational conditions. As civilization becomes increasingly complex and interconnected, we must learn how to navigate these systems effectively. YouTube has revolutionized this process; when faced with a problem, you can enter a few keywords and find a video tutorial that demystifies your issue, helping you to understand and fix it. It’s quite remarkable.
Russ Roberts: I’ve been reflecting on my recent loss; my mother passed away three weeks ago, and she has been on my mind.
Stewart Brand: I’m so sorry to hear that.
Russ Roberts: I’ve shared this before, but she would often call me for help with tech issues, and I’d think to myself—sometimes even tell her—just Google it! But, in reality, she wasn’t calling for answers; she wanted to connect with me. As we increasingly delegate our challenges to algorithms and machines, something is lost… yet, something is also gained.
Stewart Brand: That resonates deeply. The hippie generation, including myself, often disregarded not just our parents but experts and neighbors alike. This mindset contributed significantly to the success of the Whole Earth Catalog. We relied heavily on how-to books, learning practical skills from them rather than seeking guidance from mechanics or professionals.
Russ Roberts: That’s quite touching.
Russ Roberts: Your book opens with the intriguing tale of the Sunday Times Golden Globe Race of 1968, a story I was previously unaware of. It’s filled with extraordinary events that you recount beautifully. I want to share the race rules with our listeners and then inquire about your insights.
This excerpt is taken from an article on Boats.com detailing the rules: Competitors had to announce their departure for the race between June and October to avoid the Southern winter. The objective was to circumnavigate the globe, sailing south of the great capes—Good Hope, Leeuwin, and Cape Horn. No outside assistance was allowed, including mail delivery. Thus, a single person aboard the ship attempted to sail around the globe. The first to finish, returning to England from any port north of 40 degrees north, would be awarded the Golden Globe Trophy. The first finisher after March would receive a monetary prize of 5,000 British pounds—substantial enough in that era to purchase a house in London.
Out of nine competitors, only one completed the race: Robin Knox-Johnston, who took 312 days to circle the globe. I’d like to ask you two questions: What did Knox-Johnston do right, and what mistakes did the others make? There’s also one intriguing competitor who, while he did not finish, has a compelling story.
Stewart Brand: You’re showcasing your economist skills, which I admire.
Russ Roberts: Why’s that?
Stewart Brand: You recognized what 5,000 pounds could afford—impressive!
Russ Roberts: That wasn’t my observation; it’s from the article.
Stewart Brand: Regardless, it’s still noteworthy.
Russ Roberts: I’d also point out that the difference in purchasing power between a house in 1968 and today is significant, largely due to inflation and the considerable rise in housing prices. But I digress.
Russ Roberts: Nine individuals entered the race, yet only Robin Knox-Johnston finished. He spent 312 days completely alone while the other participants failed. What can you tell us about what Knox-Johnston did correctly and what the others did incorrectly?
Stewart Brand: Among the entrants, three became notable figures: Donald Crowhurst, Bernard Moitessier, and Robin Knox-Johnston. Knox-Johnston, at just 29, sailed a relatively short wooden boat, which was slower than his competitors. However, he had prior experience sailing it from India to England and felt a strong familiarity with it. His background in the Merchant Marine equipped him with essential maintenance skills, allowing him to adapt and make do with what he had.
Russ Roberts: And Crowhurst was the latecomer.
Stewart Brand: Yes, he believed he could outsmart the race using a new design called the Trimaran, which had a central hull with two stabilizing pontoons. While it promised speed, tipping over posed a significant risk—if it capsized, it was nearly impossible to right it. In contrast, Bernard Moitessier, a seasoned sailor with extensive experience, opted for a solid steel boat, designed for speed and minimal maintenance.
Russ Roberts: Crowhurst attempted to outsmart the situation but ended up failing.
Stewart Brand: Exactly. He initially hated maintenance, referring to it as ‘sailorizing,’ and neglected it. He soon realized his hastily-constructed boat was vulnerable, particularly in the Southern Ocean. He resorted to cheating by pretending to circle the globe while remaining in the Atlantic, using radio communications to fabricate his journey. As the race progressed, the fear of exposure weighed heavily on him, leading to his tragic demise.
Russ Roberts: He documented his mental decline leading up to his death.
Stewart Brand: Yes, he spiraled into madness, convinced he could dictate reality—a delusion that lasted just ten days before he succumbed to the realization of his failure. He crossed his own finish line into the ocean, never having truly left the Atlantic.
In stark contrast, Bernard Moitessier, being experienced, designed his boat for low maintenance and ease of repair. He had steps leading up the mast for necessary adjustments, while Knox-Johnston relied on a Bosun’s Chair, which was only safe in calm conditions. Moitessier truly relished his time at sea and decided to forgo his victory in favor of continuing his journey, ultimately sailing towards Tahiti instead.
Russ Roberts: Despite leaving later, Moitessier’s speed could have secured him both prizes.
Stewart Brand: That’s right. Expectations were high for his return, with France planning a naval fleet to greet him. However, he dreaded the impending fame and recognition, choosing instead to embrace the freedom of the open sea. He later penned a beautiful book titled The Long Way.
Knox-Johnston’s narrative is captured in A World of My Own, while Crowhurst’s story is chronicled in The Strange Voyage of Donald Crowhurst. These three stories highlight that it wasn’t merely willpower that defined their journeys; it was their diverse maintenance philosophies.
Knox-Johnston’s mantra was ‘Whatever comes, deal with it,’ showcasing incredible resourcefulness. In contrast, Crowhurst’s pathological optimism led to his downfall—his hope for the best ultimately resulted in tragedy. Moitessier, however, embodied the principle of ‘Prepare for the worst,’ which liberated him to appreciate the journey without constant worry over his equipment’s failure.
Russ Roberts: It’s remarkable how Knox-Johnston constantly innovated, repairing his boat and sewing sails, often discovering solutions through trial and error.
Stewart Brand: Absolutely. He’d improvise ingenious fixes, such as using solder from disassembled light bulbs to repair connections. This resourcefulness eventually earned him a knighthood from the Queen.
In contrast, Crowhurst’s approach was characterized by deceit and evasion, ultimately leading to despair. On the other hand, Moitessier thrived on the adventure, maintaining a strong vessel and remaining calm under pressure. His perspective allowed him to enjoy the journey, culminating in a profound love for sailing.
Thus, the opening narrative of the book sets the stage, illustrating that many significant stories can be recast through the lens of maintenance.
Russ Roberts: This theme resonates throughout history, doesn’t it? You also discuss its applications in military contexts, like the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and the Egyptian invasion of the Sinai in 1973. In these cases, the military that excelled at maintenance had the upper hand. Maintenance theory and practice can provide invaluable insights.
Russ Roberts: One compelling example you mention is the AK-47, supplied to the Vietnamese by the Russians, contrasted with the American M-16, which at the time was notoriously unreliable. This raises critical points about maintenance and functionality in real-world scenarios.
Stewart Brand: Indeed, the AK-47’s durability and ease of maintenance gave it a significant advantage in combat situations. While the M-16 was considered a superior weapon on paper, its propensity for jamming in the field proved deadly. American soldiers often faced dire consequences while trying to salvage their malfunctioning rifles, while the AK-47, designed for rugged conditions, could be quickly repaired and kept operational.
Russ Roberts: This illustrates how perceived superiority can falter in practice. The M-16’s testing environments did not account for the harsh conditions soldiers would actually face, which highlights the importance of practical functionality over theoretical advantages.
Stewart Brand: Absolutely. The humid jungle conditions in Vietnam led to the M-16s rusting rapidly, rendering them ineffective. In contrast, the AK-47’s design prioritized reliability in harsh environments, making it a favored weapon for Vietnamese forces.
Moreover, the Israeli army’s emphasis on initiative and adaptability stands in stark contrast to the Egyptian army, whose rigid hierarchy stifled maintenance efforts. This dynamic often led to significant losses in battles, despite numerical superiority.
As you’ve noted, a lack of initiative and trust among troops can severely hinder maintenance efforts, as seen in both the Egyptian and Syrian forces during conflicts.
Russ Roberts: Your analysis extends to the British automotive industry, where a similar class system has contributed to subpar quality. The reluctance to trust lower-level employees with maintenance responsibilities hampers overall performance.
Russ Roberts: I want to highlight a key aspect of the Israeli army: their reputation for fostering initiative and a flat hierarchy, enabling soldiers to take charge. However, it’s noteworthy that during the recent conflict, reservists discovered that much of the stored equipment had not been properly maintained, leading to significant shortages.
Following the October 7th events, many reservists found that outdated gear and equipment had not been serviced. A notable grassroots effort emerged where units sourced supplies through private donations, highlighting the stark contrast between expectations and reality.
This reflects a broader issue: the challenge of maintaining public infrastructure, especially when profit motives are absent. The lack of strong incentives to prioritize maintenance can lead to significant deficiencies.
Russ Roberts: I believe that often, when people feel a sense of urgency or accountability, such as during a crisis, they are more likely to prioritize maintenance and responsiveness. That’s different from the routine operations in peacetime.
Stewart Brand: That’s an insightful observation. The notion of ‘Right to Repair’ has gained traction in recent years. I’m currently exploring this in my ongoing work. John Deere, once lauded for its customer-centric approach, now faces backlash for limiting repair options. This shift has transformed the company into a symbol of the struggle for consumer rights in the 21st century.
Russ Roberts: It seems that the market may address these issues organically, as brands that neglect consumer needs risk damaging their reputations.
Stewart Brand: Exactly. The current landscape is a clear indication of how vital it is for companies to maintain relationships with their customers; those who ignore this principle may find themselves in jeopardy.
Russ Roberts: The conversation around AI has been particularly intense lately, especially concerning its potential impact on labor and the economy. I’m generally optimistic about the productivity gains it can bring, but I also recognize there are challenges ahead.
AI, in my view, is a tool that can significantly enhance human productivity and creativity, creating new job opportunities. However, there are valid concerns regarding its implications for the workforce and interpersonal connections.
Stewart Brand: My age provides a unique perspective on technological advances. I have witnessed the rise of personal computers and the Internet, both of which have had lasting impacts. AI is likely to fall into the same category. It will create challenges as it evolves, but humans have a history of adapting to new technologies and overcoming obstacles.
Russ Roberts: It’s essential to embrace the potential of AI while remaining vigilant about its risks.
Stewart Brand: Absolutely. The key lies in our capacity to learn from both successes and failures in technology. The real-life experiences and challenges we encounter with AI will guide us toward making informed decisions about its integration into society. This ongoing process of adaptation and learning is vital for progress. We must confront problems with practical solutions rather than hypothetical fears.
Russ Roberts: Today, I’ve had the pleasure of speaking with Stewart Brand, whose book Maintenance: Of Everything serves as a profound exploration of these themes. We’ll provide links to the online version of the book, allowing readers to engage with its evolving narrative.
Stewart Brand: Thank you very much for having me.
Russ Roberts: It’s been a delight conversing with you, Stewart.
Stewart Brand: Likewise!
